Eagler's Nest
Airframes => Single Seaters => Topic started by: 914pete on November 04, 2015, 12:58:48 PM
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Hi, I'm new to this forum and will be purchasing plans for the Legal Eagle. I own a mig welder and have experience using it around the warehouse and farm. I have no experience with oxy/Acetylene welding though and am looking at two different options from Harbor Freight. The first would be this: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-torch-kit-with-oxygen-and-acetylene-tanks-65818.html which comes with empty tanks, and the second: http://www.harborfreight.com/oxygen-and-acetylene-welding-kit-98958.html no tanks. Do I really need to "own" tanks? I haven't located a gas supplier yet. I'm assuming they would offer filled tanks in various sizes. And if I did go with the option which includes tanks are they big enough for the project? I plan on practicing.....A LOT....prior to starting the fuselage. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello 914pete,
I will only speak to this from my own experience and let others add their comments.
I had an Oxy-Acet setup prior to building my LE. I found the standard torch to be usable with small tips, but it did not take long to get tired fighting the weight of the torch and hoses. Of course, I might be a lightweight because a 82 year old friend of mine built a Early Bird Ginny with his medium torch and small tips - Yeah, humbling....
I followed the recommendations of several on this group and purchased the Meco Midget Torch - here is one location to purchase, just to show what I am talking about. I am sure there are others. https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/meco-midget-torch.php
There may be someone on here that is through building and would like to sell one of these setups. I will keep mine forever :-)
There are smaller, light weight, hoses that are made for this torch that have ends to fit onto standard torch hoses. I can say they made a big difference in long term use and made it easier to get into the upside down, twisting 'S' pretzel head stand positions, and that was just Station #1 for me. This smaller torch will also save on your gas usage.
Tanks - if this is the only project you will use OxyAct for, the cheaper route is to rent your tanks from a local supplier. I think you will cuss the HF tanks for being too small and needing refills often.
Regulators are pretty standard, but most will scream Victor brand, and if you plan on having a long term system, you can't go wrong with Victor.
Be careful buying used regulators - I recommend buying new ones unless the seller can demonstrate his used ones are in perfect working order. You might even take them to a welding supplier and ask them to check them out for you if you do not feel comfortable enough to make the determination on your own. Walk into the Welding Supply Store, tell them you are a newbie and they usually bend over backwards helping you. If not, find a new supplier.
Now with all that said - if you rent the tanks and purchase the Meco torch, after the build, you can return the tanks and probably sell the torch and hoses to the next new builder on this group, just a thought.
Hope this helps - have fun,
Hugh
NightEagle
BlackHutOps
CoonNeck, Texas
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Hughs response was excellent. His comments on the Meco Midget seem to be the same as nearly everyone else who's used it. Someone described changing from a full size torch to the midget as changing from an ax to a scalpel. I've decided I'll purchase one initially for this project and keep it. I'll use it where light weight welding is needed. Plus, my wife is a bit of an artist and jewelry maker. Should I ever need a more heavy duty rig, I'll purchase one then.
Regarding tools from HF, I view those as project tools. If they last to the end of a project, then I got my moneys worth. I have no expectation of quality or durability from tools purchased there. That said, I personally would NEVER buy a welding kit from them. They're inexpensive for a reason.
Good Luck.
Vince
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Hi, I'm new to this forum and will be purchasing plans for the Legal Eagle. I own a mig welder and have experience using it around the warehouse and farm. I have no experience with oxy/Acetylene welding though and am looking at two different options from Harbor Freight. The first would be this: http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-torch-kit-with-oxygen-and-acetylene-tanks-65818.html which comes with empty tanks, and the second: http://www.harborfreight.com/oxygen-and-acetylene-welding-kit-98958.html no tanks. Do I really need to "own" tanks? I haven't located a gas supplier yet. I'm assuming they would offer filled tanks in various sizes. And if I did go with the option which includes tanks are they big enough for the project? I plan on practicing.....A LOT....prior to starting the fuselage. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
yes, Hughs post was good.
You slightly got the cart ahead of the horse on the tanks though. Go to your supplier, and see what they offer. DO THIS first. Just because most think Harbor freight has the best deals, does not mean every deal is best. They make money on folks with some things or marked up crap in other area. Just part of business in that field. But if you have an honest supplier price, at least you know where to start. I don't think you would be happy with the Meco torch with poor regulators.. I think you could be very happy with decent ones. So in short, your close if not already there on this path. Best of success.
ps. there is a really simple practice plan that I use when teaching to weld. if your interested, I will detail. I may have done this on this forum before.. I did not go back and look up.
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Hey Pete,
One more thing - Scottiniowa (replied below) put out a diagram instruction on how to weld up an Eagle Frame in 19 days - I remember I used it and it was great to give you a starting point to the build. Now it seems pretty basic stuff, but I remember at the time I first saw it - It was Exactly what I needed to get started and it helped me get my mind into the plans....I am sure he still has that posting somewhere for you to look at.
I will tell you that practice with the torch will be good to have - I can also tell you that your oct/acet welding will be much improved by the time you finish the fuselage - I even welded up the last tube without burning a hole in that one, yeah go figure. Just remember, there are a bunch of Pros on this site & there are a bunch of builders here with thousands of hours of build time, and that is just in the Eagles. Many builders here have other aircraft under their build belt. You cannot come up with a problem some one has not run up against and found a solution for. The answers are here. Good Luck with your project.
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Hey Pete,
One more thing - Scottiniowa (replied below) put out a diagram instruction on how to weld up an Eagle Frame in 19 days - I remember I used it and it was great to give you a starting point to the build. Now it seems pretty basic stuff, but I remember at the time I first saw it - It was Exactly what I needed to get started and it helped me get my mind into the plans....I am sure he still has that posting somewhere for you to look at.
I will tell you that practice with the torch will be good to have - I can also tell you that your oct/acet welding will be much improved by the time you finish the fuselage - I even welded up the last tube without burning a hole in that one, yeah go figure. Just remember, there are a bunch of Pros on this site & there are a bunch of builders here with thousands of hours of build time, and that is just in the Eagles. Many builders here have other aircraft under their build belt. You cannot come up with a problem some one has not run up against and found a solution for. The answers are here. Good Luck with your project.
The .pdf 19 step file is attached for download:
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Here are a couple of youtube series to watch, will help also to wrap your head around it. (im sure you have seen them before) One is the legal eagle the other is a double eagle I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/user/LeagleEagleAirplane/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/LeagleEagleAirplane/videos)
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrBullfrog92/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/MrBullfrog92/videos)
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A few more thoughts for those at the beginning stages of your build ( i.e.- getting things lined up to build and practice)
When I teach someone or a group how to weld, I simply do what we call a coupon weld session and the results tell me very quickly if I would have them build an air frame for themselves or myself (one in the same) It goes like this.
- I have them get 6 squares of common steel (use cold rolled or extra clean hot, and you can even toss in a piece of thin stainless) 4" or 3" square, each of them
- these thickness's range from .020 to .125", making sure you have at least two that are close to .035" But there is a HUGE reason for the variation
- Note: if there is two or three of you all learning at the same time, you will most likely get ALL the coupons for the same price (not much) due to labor
- Clean the edges and everything else. if you have oil on them, you will see the poor results first hand, so I guess you could leave one dirty to see the effect
Now for the steps for practice and please note the above, took you just a few minutes somewhere, I have often thought that I should round up these coupons to be available, perhaps I could ship everything for $15.00 postage included if there is a interest. ( again I couldn't do unless there was a lot of interest) Ok the steps to practice
- Take one coupon and lay flat on your weld surface, and take second one, stand vertical, 90 degrees and learn the value of a block to hold it. Remember if you weld the inside corner tack, when it cools it will draw toward the weld, i.e. you may end with two tacks a angle of 85 degrees- YOU LEARNED what the heat just did, and you can spread this back to your desired 90 degrees, YOU LEARNED the value of small but good tacks
- reverse this and put up your second side just like #1 YOU LEARNED the value of doing step 1 right, so step 2 matches YOU LEARNED the value of building your aircraft in steps with each one done right when you do them, going back is 10 times harder, so do it right the first time (with good tacks)
- flip over your part and side 4 should match the opposing side, again tacks, YOU LEARNED NOW how the different thickness's of coupons react to your heat. This is true in MIG< TIG < or torch.
- Now your ends go on, if you did steps 1-3 correctly, your box is square and the ends will butt up and you soon will have a tacked tuff box YOU LEARNED the value of keeping things the way you want and at a certain point the tuff-ness of the box will prevent warping or movement of the side. This is a good thing to know.
- Now the fun... you have a box in front of you, only tacked, if you are satisfied, move on, if you don't like something, you can easily remove a few tack welds and change. YOU LEARNED much by now.
- your easily weld, if your right handed, would be to weld from right to left, with torch in right hand and fill rod in left, pick a top seam, and watch your puddle, it is everything. NOW would be a good time to google ZEN WELDING by my good friend Budd Davisson, it is an excellent short read about the ability to put yourself/thoughts/skill at the puddles edge, it is EVERYTHING about welding. You Can weld about 1 to 1.5"
- Rotate the box 180 degrees and do the same, note it is very likely you will be working with one side the same thickness and one side that is different, things will be different, yet once you get your puddle, the power to react is in your hands, not the metal. YOU LEARNED so much now, I congratulate you.
- Your time to this point might be 1 hour, you have learned a lifetime of skill in knowing what your mind is telling your hands. YOU LEARNED that you control the weld, not the metal.
- continue to all side seams, finding out what each one will present you. Don't contemplate the thickness of each side, concentrate on what the puddle is telling you. (back to the ZEN story)
- Now the part all NEW welders hate... Weld ALL SEAMS- EVERY inch... Do a bit every hour, do a bit every day... you don't have to do all at once... But do it. Every inch you weld, you will get better.
- NOT DONE YET... now start laying down beads, across one of the sides, go 1" or 2" or all the way...across. Flip to a new side, wow, different thickness shows different speed and ways to accomplish. But it will work if you mastered above...
- NOT DONE YET... weld some vertical up welds, with box in front of you, you will be presented welds like this on your air frame, so learn here first
- NOT DONE YET... weld right to left, left to right, weld up, weld down., drill a quarter inch hole and see how easy it is to fill it by welding the edges and around, do this on different sides for fun, it will be fun by now.
- NOT DONE YET.... I tell my students, when the block is fully welded, all sides, all panels covered, they are ready for aircraft building and I would never mind flying their bird. Because I know they took the time to LEARN to weld.
The truth: Most don't want to take the time to do this. Most seem to want to practice on the real thing, Most think they can come back and do-over. Most don't know that "do-overs" are three times as hard and generally look bad and are weaker but most important, take MUCH MUCH Longer than doing right the first time.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the info everyone. Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I checked a few times but didn't see any responses. I'm still getting use to navigating this forum. Thanks for the link on the Meco Torch Hugh. That seems like a very good price. I want to get more precise with my welding prior to starting the Legal Eagle and I like the idea of saving on gas. I'll explore some used options as well. Unfortunately, like most of my projects, I have to keep costs in check.
Vince, being only a weekend warrior, I buy a lot of tools from HF and yes, I think of them as project tools as well. Case in point, the fire inspector came to my biz recently and informed me I had to anchor my metal pallet racks to the ground. I tried with a regular drill and masonry bit to drill holes for the wedge anchors. I barely broke the cement surface. So I called the landlord who referred me to his guy who wanted $350 to drill 6 holes!!! NJ Prices. So I ran over to HF, bought a $78 hammer drill, got 20% off of course, worked great. Took 20 mins. Some things you can get cheaper elsewhere, and some HF things don't last but over all I have been happy with (most) of their products. If I go with the HF torch I'll buy when I have the fuselage drawings layed out on a table, 4130 in hand and ready to start practicing building Scotts box just in case I have to return it.
I stopped at a local welding/gas supply store today. The salesman wasn't interested in giving me exact costs on anything, but had a ball park figure of $800 to get started with a medium duty Victor set up and renting full 60 cu.ft. tanks. That seemed a little steep. I have one more option within an hours drive which I will check next week. Also, within some of the HF reviews, people noticed the HF equipment was stamped with Victors logo even though not marked on the box.
Scottiniowa, I like the .PDF fuselage instruction and have saved it. I will definitely refer to it when I get started. And like I mentioned, I actually really enjoy welding and look forward practicing on your box making lesson. Its so much better to have a "project" to work on rather then just welding a few pieces of scrap laying around the warehouse with no method or finished product in mind. Thanks for taking the time!
** Before I go to the next welding supply store, can anyone give me an idea on what size tanks they use and how many times they had to be refilled for their Legal Eagle build? Maybe the guy today was reluctant to give me specifics on pricing because I wasn't specific enough on what I needed such as tank size.
Thanks again for the responses. Getting excited!
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Anyone see a problem with mig tacking the members, then comeback and acetylene the weld all joints once out of the jig?
This is what I did yesterday.
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I don't see any problem and what you are proposing has been done by others before. Regardless of what equipment you tack with and which ever equipment you weld with you weld right through the tacks. Not over, not around right through it like it was not there, and it won't be there anymore.
Tom XL-7
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One issue to pay attention to is your tack wire. I tack with the same rod that I will weld with, where in your case you will tack with whatever the spool is delivering.
Be aware that the small amount of metal introduced during the tack will be part of the final weld. Make sure your comfortable with it. Would be best to use a spool that is comparable to your final rod.
And that is a whole other can of worms
Perhaps the group will chime in on that one.
The tig users will of course use tig rod like one of the ER70 series. And a lot of the gas users do also.
Some use rod produced in super clean inert gas environments that match the parent metal.
I have about 4 pounds of RG-45 on hand and I am very likely going to use it.
It is quite an improvement over coat hanger! And no I do not sand the copper coating off my rods but I am likely to wipe it with a fine grit crocus cloth just to knock of any corrosion that possibly may be there. The same as I will clean the parent metal
But I have considered going a little harder, rod isn't free but it's not really going to bust the budget either.
Tom XL-7
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A note - when you tack weld the 4130 and the tack metal will normally become harder than original. I found when coming up on the tacked area your are going to need more heat at the tack site. So that is going to mean adjusting the gas or speed of weld at the tack site. If you do not make an adjustment of some kind, you will find yourself welding up on and over the tack and having an unsightly area at the tack site. Just a thought and would be something to practice on a couple times before hitting the final tube welding. Yeah, you guessed it,,,, I found this out on my own took me a bit to figure out what was happening. You will find this happening around the multiple tube points where your welds start coming together also. After a while, and some practice at filling up burn holes, I found I preferred a bit more heat, kept the speed up on clean tubing, and I could just slow down a bit coming up on the weld... Just work the puddle and you will be fine. The secret is work the puddle. Try to keep the puddle a consistent size and most of the other stuff like speed, torch heat, rod feeding will fall into place. Of course this actually works with most other types of welding also, so you may be familiar with it already. Have Fun
NightEagle @ BlackHutOps
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Can anyone offer a suggestion on appropriate tank sizes for the oxygen/acetylene? I would only be using the Oxy/acetylene set up for this project. I don't mind having to refill a couple times. I don't want to get bigger tanks then I need.
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Can anyone offer a suggestion on appropriate tank sizes for the oxygen/acetylene? I would only be using the Oxy/acetylene set up for this project. I don't mind having to refill a couple times. I don't want to get bigger tanks then I need.
You will do fine with medium tanks. Your supplier should easily know the size ratio from OXY to ACET you will want a cart for your tanks, and if buying one, that will determine the size of tanks most likely. If space is a concern, from medium to large, the foot print is nearly the same, certainly not enough difference to notice.
Best of success
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A note - when you tack weld the 4130 and the tack metal will normally become harder than original. I found when coming up on the tacked area your are going to need more heat at the tack site. So that is going to mean adjusting the gas or speed of weld at the tack site. If you do not make an adjustment of some kind, you will find yourself welding up on and over the tack and having an unsightly area at the tack site. Just a thought and would be something to practice on a couple times before hitting the final tube welding. Yeah, you guessed it,,,, I found this out on my own took me a bit to figure out what was happening. You will find this happening around the multiple tube points where your welds start coming together also. After a while, and some practice at filling up burn holes, I found I preferred a bit more heat, kept the speed up on clean tubing, and I could just slow down a bit coming up on the weld... Just work the puddle and you will be fine. The secret is work the puddle. Try to keep the puddle a consistent size and most of the other stuff like speed, torch heat, rod feeding will fall into place. Of course this actually works with most other types of welding also, so you may be familiar with it already. Have Fun
NightEagle @ BlackHutOps
Some additions to above
- [font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', 'Liberation Sans', 'Nimbus Sans L', Arial, sans-serif]A note - when you tack weld the 4130 and the tack metal will normally become harder than original.
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with the added words of tacking with MIG, then gas welding the MIG creates HAZ Heat affected zone- which largely becomes mute with your follow up gas welding. but certainly true if you have wire that is not correct, a quick check of your wire make up will tell you. Not very many wires are clear down in strength we can live with. i.e. 45-70 tensile rating.
- I found when coming up on the tacked area your are going to need more heat at the tack site. So that is going to mean adjusting the gas or speed of weld at the tack site. If you do not make an adjustment of some kind, you will find yourself welding up on and over the tack and having an unsightly area at the tack site.
All the more reason for the practice coupon explained earlier.
- You will find this happening around the multiple tube points where your welds start coming together also. After a while, and some practice at filling up burn holes
by watching your puddle (ZEN of welding) burn holes should be very very seldom.
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I use what I think they call '70 pounders' or something like that. The Oxy bottle is about 4 feet tall and the Act a bit shorter as you will use Oxy at a higher rate. I had some in the tanks at the beginning, and seems like I refilled them twice during the build. I have mine on a cart so they can be moved around with out them falling over... But, I can say, during my build, with standard gas hoses coming from the regulators and the smaller hoses on the Meca Micro Torch, it was never necessary to move the tanks from a position off to the side of the build table. Just be sure the tanks are securely anchored to prevent them falling over. A falling tank and broken valve with the pressure the gas is under will make for a VERY exciting day for you, your neighbors, your shop walls, passing cars, pedestrians in the area. Secure the tanks - If you do not secure the tanks, be sure to get us some video of it for the rest of us to watch. :-)
NightEagle