Eagler's Nest
Airframes => Single Seaters => XL => Topic started by: Bill_A on November 13, 2016, 09:31:54 AM
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Hi all,
Been lurking here for a while, but finally got my plans, so thought I'd say hi. Will be starting on the build as soon as I can re-arrange my shop for the table (easier said than done!). The winter rains have started up here in the Northwest, so lot's of time to build. I'm sure I'll have lot's of questions.....
Bill
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I've hardly been here enough to say welcome but Hi, anyway. I'm still waiting for my XL plans to arrive but would like to order my steel tube soon. There used to be some disagreement in various plan sets over the years on the quantity of 1/2" and 5/8" tubing. When you get a chance could you please say the quantities of each from your new plans ? Thanks...Dave Stroud
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I hope Leonard won't mind too much, but from my BOM: 125ft. 5/8x0.035 and 30ft 1/2"x0.035. There's a bunch more other sizes, but that's the bulk of it. Also, Mike on YouTube (LeagleEagleAirplane) says that 15 ft lengths work out ok to minimize waste, although people here may have other suggestions. Shipping is the major problem, so if you can, buy locally and pick up. I'm in the Seattle area, so there are a number of sources for 4130.
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I'm in Woodinville. What sources have you found?
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I hope Leonard won't mind too much, but from my BOM: 125ft. 5/8x0.035 and 30ft 1/2"x0.035. There's a bunch more other sizes, but that's the bulk of it. Also, Mike on YouTube (LeagleEagleAirplane) says that 15 ft lengths work out ok to minimize waste, although people here may have other suggestions. Shipping is the major problem, so if you can, buy locally and pick up. I'm in the Seattle area, so there are a number of sources for 4130.
Just a few thoughts on material cutting, and this comes mostly from past experince, but anyone doing for the first time, can calculate this out on a spread sheet as well.
Anytime you go over 8' you might as well go to full 20 or 21' lengths, the freight is hardly ever different, on a quantity of 15' lengths vs 21' lengths as a truck is a truck in shipping...(a shipper does not have 15 or 16' trucks only available)
From your plans, simply calculate the max length for each piece and put on one line of your XL spread sheet
do this for every piece before any cutting.. (this can be done, it doesn't take long)
Then sort this LIST- that you just created.
Then pretend you have your FULL lengths laying in front of you. Pretend to cut the longest piece (all on paper or your spreadsheet) i.e. cut 11' from a 21' and you got 10' left.
Then see if you have a piece required to be 10' - Wa-la, the first one is gone with NO scrap
if you don't have a exact 10' piece, see if you have a combo of longer ones and a short one to make the best use of your remaining tube
Each time mark on your spread sheet that you USED that line.
Now onto the next full piece, and follow suit. Always selecting your longest cuts first.
Pretty soon your list will show mostly short pieces left, and these are cut from remaining long pieces of tubing.
I think you will find if you do this, you will have very little scrap generated ( my eagle XL generated about 11" of scrap-upon calculations) Yes, hardly anything.
If you start cutting short and long pieces without heed to future needs, you can easily end up with several 4-5' pieces left for no reason.
This is certainly the case of a small bit of pre-planning work pay huge dividends later.
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I hope Leonard won't mind too much, but from my BOM: 125ft. 5/8x0.035 and 30ft 1/2"x0.035. There's a bunch more other sizes, but that's the bulk of it. Also, Mike on YouTube (LeagleEagleAirplane) says that 15 ft lengths work out ok to minimize waste, although people here may have other suggestions. Shipping is the major problem, so if you can, buy locally and pick up. I'm in the Seattle area, so there are a number of sources for 4130.
Hi Bill, I just finished my XL fuselage according to plans. I ended up buying what my supplier called "random lengths" which was roughly 20' lengths give or take an inch or so. My supplier is in PA, I'm in NJ. Fortunately, they have their own delivery trucks and I was able to negotiate a $50 delivery fee. If I remember, delivery from ACS was going to be somewhere in the $160 range. Also by buying the "random lengths", I was able to negotiate better pricing per foot for both the 5/8" and 1/2" tubing.
Just the bare fuselage, I haven't started the landing gear yet, I used 132' of 5/8 x .035 and 25' of the 1/2" x .035 tubing (give or take a foot or so for welding practice)
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Giday, Pete. Could you please advise who your steel supplier was in Pa ? Do you remember the price per foot for the 1/2" and the 5/8" ?
Buying the random / long lengths makes good sense. Thanks....Dave.
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I'll try to answer these in order.
Scott - Absolutely the right way to do it - I've already started on the spreadsheet. Just like making a cut list for wood - there's actually software out there for doing cut lists and minimizing waste from the lengths you have on hand. I wish I still had access to the software, but a spreadsheet will do. My comment about 15 ft lengths was simply because they're easier for most people to haul around, but if you can handle 20/21ft lengths, you're better off.
John - Everett Steel (smaller diameters are not listed on their website, but they'll get it for you. For a fee, they will deliver as well), JW Ryerson (Renton), TW Metals (Woodenville!), Specialty Metals (Kent), and finally OnlineMetals (Seattle, a little pricey, but they usually have it in stock). Where ever you go, I would strongly suggest picking it up and take the 'stock' lengths, whatever they are. Or as Pete said, if they have 'random lengths', those are going to be cheaper. I've dealt with both Everett Steel and OnlineMetals, and they are both easy to work with. Don't order off the website - call the sales office for both places and ask for a quantity discount. The worst they can say is 'no'.
Bill
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Thanks, Bill. Damn, right here in Woodinville! How lucky is that? Appreciate the information. Regards, John
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Bill and John. When you get a chance could you please take a look on page 5 of your LEXL plans and advise what the overall length of the fuselage is ? Thanks...Dave
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Legal Eagle XL plans # 33 shows 158 inches overall for the bare fuselage.
This is on page 6. Page 5 only shows tubing sizes...
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Can't give any advice Bill as I'm just starting on mine, but welcome and good luck!
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Ok, so I have my first question/comment now that its been brought up. And, I'm also wondering, as a complete noob, if I'm being way too picky...
Mike on YouTube started his fuse flat on the table, then bent the rear up at station 3. The other way to make the longeron is two pieces with a joint (more complex than it already is!) to form the cockpit area at station 3. Either way, the rear part of the longeron is shown projected up and in (24" wide at the cockpit to 0" at the tail tube, 0 to 16 1/2" up at the tail tube). The actual length of the longeron from station 3 to the tail tube is not shown or mentioned anywhere, only the projected length (and remember it's projected in 3D space). From the 3D version of the Pythagorean Theorem, the length of the longeron from station 3 to the tail post should be 114.089 (114.1 probably way close enough), but almost 2" longer than simply using the projected length of 112 1/4". Just wondering if anyone else thought about this...
Bill
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Sure I've thought about it. And if you think about it very much, Bill....yer likely not to get much past stage three. I remember pythagoream, most on the list won't and even less will give a rat's ass. Fix the lower longerons down to the table in the area of the cabin, fix the tail post up in the imaginary location depicted on the plans and make the longerons become bent by heat application so that they meet the tailpost in a nice, relaxed situation after doing a nice ditting notch on either side.
What are your thoughts on oiling the inside of the tubes ? I've always done it and will do it here too. I'll also do a nice scarph joint on all my wing spar faces. Not called out on the plans but nice to have and easy to do. AC43-13 is important to me.
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Bill, I was a professional fabricator for over 20 years.
Despite Mr Strouds apparent insult to the intelligence of board members,(I'm well aware who Pythagoras is) his advice is sound in this situation.
Don't overthink...just do it. If you affix station 3 and the tailpost everything will fall into place. A real world physical measurement is easily obtainable and more accurate than a paper estimate...everytime.
K.I.S.S.
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It was not my intention to insult anyone...just trying to point out that sometimes if you "just get on with it" progress will happen. My apologies to anyone offended.
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It's all good fellow Dave. I really didn't think you meant it the way it came out.
You're absolutely correct in your advice to "get on with it".
I've read just about every thread here and it seems to me that for a large majority of questions, the answers will become self evident as we build.
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Dave & Dave, I get where you're both coming from, but as an engineer, I tend to think twice or more about a problem, then get it on with it. If I have a pretty good notion of where I want to end up, it makes getting there a whole lot easier. Since I've never built an airplane before, I'd rather play a few mind games first so that I'm not having to say (too often) "Sh*t, I just cut that piece of tubing too short!"
Bill
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I admire Engineers Bill and you have a great advantage over the average fella when looking into design considerations of something you are actually building. Most of the engineering stuff is over my head but I did buy a book called Stress without Tears by Tom Rhodes to try to improve myself. I delve into it from time to time thinking I might pick up on something and it might become clear in my head. It doesn't seem to ever happen...it brings on stress and I get close to tears. It makes me feel good that there are experts out there like you.