Eagler's Nest
Airframes => Single Seaters => XL => Topic started by: 914pete on June 08, 2017, 12:23:46 PM
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Hi. Still working on my gear. Seems to be taking longer then the whole fuselage did lol. Should the ends of the shock struts be closed with sheet metal? Nothing mentioned in the plans. First time builder. It seems odd to have open tubes.
Also, should a sheet metal strap be welded over the tops of the six 3/8" dia. x 7/8" long connect tubes at the top of each gear leg and Vee strut? I know one must always consider extra weight.
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Hi. Still working on my gear. Seems to be taking longer then the whole fuselage did lol. Should the ends of the shock struts be closed with sheet metal? Nothing mentioned in the plans. First time builder. It seems odd to have open tubes.
Also, should a sheet metal strap be welded over the tops of the six 3/8" dia. x 7/8" long connect tubes at the top of each gear leg and Vee strut? I know one must always consider extra weight.
I am just doing a quick on the fly answer to basic open or welded shut tubes-
Only if material can fall through, do I leave both ends open. (on any aircraft or structure)
and if the material can hold water, I sure work hard to prevent.
you shouldn’t need a strap, to close an end, a simple plug can do it. (lighter to) easy to make with hole saw.
cheers
Scott
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I should explain just a bit on plugs, if that is all they are- then we cut 7/8’s for 3/4” tube and the like this allows you to set the “cap or plug” without worry of it falling in. The slight extras edge often can be your “fill” for the weld if your careful depending on your skill this cap can be very thin, if not used as a structural piece
Also, I am sure you all know, but when you have a cross bolt through a tube, you should always have a cross tube for this bolt to go into, it will greatly strengthen this bolt area.
and lastly, when I mean by dirt to easily fall through, I mean just that. IF there are things for the dirt to hang up on, it will! So only a clear open tube (painted on the inside) would I trust to never rust.
Very few of these exist on airplanes
cheers
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On the gear legs,
pg 22 shows what appears to be a strap, yet
pg23 shows just a tube welded to the top.
It would be good to hear what others have done as I have not heard of a gear failure at the welds.
It has always been a tube bending.
I don't see 4 finger straps weighing a whole lot. the question is do they add anything of value or do they hide the condition of the underlying weld?
Yeah, I know a question isn't the best answer unless it's in some "teaching" environment.
But I guess I will size it up when I get there.
As for water traps, pg 25 has a beauty. The tail post has an angle welded to the bottom.
not sure if a drain hole is shown anywhere in the drawings but would seem mandatory.
a cap on top the inner shock tube may hold dirt.
I don't see the need there.
Tom XL-7
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I should explain just a bit on plugs, if that is all they are- then we cut 7/8’s for 3/4” tube and the like this allows you to set the “cap or plug” without worry of it falling in. The slight extras edge often can be your “fill” for the weld if your careful depending on your skill this cap can be very thin, if not used as a structural piece
Also, I am sure you all know, but when you have a cross bolt through a tube, you should always have a cross tube for this bolt to go into, it will greatly strengthen this bolt area.
(One of us didn't know this LOL) Thanks for mentioning it.
and lastly, when I mean by dirt to easily fall through, I mean just that. IF there are things for the dirt to hang up on, it will! So only a clear open tube (painted on the inside) would I trust to never rust.
Very few of these exist on airplanes
cheers
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What metal thickness is used for the tabs used to attach the shock struts to the axle tubes? I currently have tacked in place .032 4130 as noted for the V-strut bracket used to attach the top of the shock strut. I want to make sure this is correct before finish welding. Thanks
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I would call Leonard and ask him since he designed it. Better to do it right the first time, no do overs.
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I used 0.03 also but i think I'm going to reinforce it. would be interesting what Leonard says.
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I'm assuming since the top bracket is .032 then the bottom bracket can be the same. Does anyone know if Leonard has/responds to email? Hate to bother him with a phone call.
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My personal impression is he'd rather talk than type. You could do both. Then you can say "I sent an email but dint know if you had rather take a phone call..."
Let us know what he says.
Happy Independence day. :emoji_u1f619:
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I am confused.
What page are you seeing a reference to 0.032.
so what I see is the mount at the crotch of the V that accepts the tops of the shock tubes. Page 22 XL drawings
My drawings are early (no 7) and things may have changed. My drawings show that as 0.090 steel.
Tom XL-7
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.090...big difference. Page 22
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Thanks
printed and will insert in plans
Drawing is otherwise the same
Where yours reads ".032 STEEL"
mine "STEEL .090"
Tom XL-7
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I left a VM as well as sent an email to Leonard.
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.090...big difference. Page 22
Pete, yes, a big difference, but where on page 22 is anyone seeing a call out for these brackets as .032”?
I don’t such a call out anywhere, not even on your included reference photo.
Now page 26. it clearly shows it closer up with the call out of .090” With the print actually called “ gear-wing fittings” I would tend to go with this sheet.
While these plans are a bit jumpy (going from one part to another) generally it is called out at least once or this forum knows the answer. (as might be the case in the part)
Best of success all.
Scott
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Scott, on my plans page 22 bottom center just above the v strut bracket it shows .032, but it does not show thickness for the pieces on the axle tube where it bolts to the 5/8 x .035 tube coming from the v strut down to axle tube [ top right corner page 22 ] These pieces of flat stock are welded to the end of the 3/4 x .062 axle tube. I have looked at these plans for years and had not noticed this. The brackets for the wing struts are .090 .:emoji_u1f601:
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Scott, on my plans page 22 bottom center just above the v strut bracket it shows .032, but it does not show thickness for the pieces on the axle tube where it bolts to the 5/8 x .035 tube coming from the v strut down to axle tube [ top right corner page 22 ] These pieces of flat stock are welded to the end of the 3/4 x .062 axle tube. I have looked at these plans for years and had not noticed this. The brackets for the wing struts are .090 .:emoji_u1f601:
Ok, now I see “ what is being talked about” and the dimension call out. The loading at this center point with a call out of .032” is so much different than the landing gear piece that holds both wing strut and landing gear Vee strut. it is the later that I thought the thread was about. And that is clearly call out on page 26.
That being said, I don’t think anyone has argued or stated that this center piece (lower Vee strut web) needs to be .090” or is called out to be this.
cheers
Scott
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Scott
My page 22 from set #7 shows it as .090
Tom XL-7
Must have been a change in later sets
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Scott
My page 22 from set #7 shows it as .090
Tom XL-7
Must have been a change in later sets
Hi Tom
The boss used, both letters and numbers, but don’t know what he started with, (and probably won’t)
But I have XL-A14 I didn’t go down to the plans room to see what the Original eagle plans number is, but not super early like the XL plans I have.
cheers
Scott
I don’t mind changes a bit, as long as I know where to go and see what was changed and when, in accordance to plans number. In general, when I sell a set of supplemental plans, if there is a change, I show both ways… mostly to show why the change as well as how things work with the change. Or post to the forum for all to see. But that is different for all providers.
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Mine also is 0.32" on page 22, in my plans the page 26 is the wing strut plates and are 0.09". But for the Vee Struts plainly says 0.32" at connection point for the plate.
But as I stated above I will be reinforcing it, When in doubt make it stronger.
My Plans E=95
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I have plan set #XL- A-05 and B-40. Both sets show .032 for the v strut plates.
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Just so you don't think I'm off my meds
or on some, I will attempt to post an attachment of my drawing
Let's remember the original question of this thread was what is the thickness of the reinforcing sleeves on the strut tubes.
well if your going over a 5/8 tube a 3/4 -0.062 would fit on the numbers
perhaps a 3/4 - 0.058 would be a little friendlier.
You should have a scrap piece left over from your axle tubes.
Tom XL-7
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Well, that wasn't correct.
The original question
related to the tabs at the end of the axle tube.
Leonards answer will be forthcoming
But if you add a piece of .058 over a .035 on your strut tubes you end up with .093 of metal
I think I would like to match it.
if the strength is needed in one piece it should be there on the other
Tom XL-7
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What metal thickness is used for the tabs used to attach the shock struts to the axle tubes? I currently have tacked in place .032 4130 as noted for the V-strut bracket used to attach the top of the shock strut. I want to make sure this is correct before finish welding. Thanks
On my plans set # 149 for the LEU (not LEXL) purchased in 1998 on pages 13 and 14 the tab thickness for axle tube is called out as 1/8 inch steel so that is what I used on my LEXL.
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Builders The metal on the v struts should be .062 not .032 Leonard
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Got to love it!
:emoji_u263a:
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I will be scabbing on a plate, easy fix to weld on.
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I built mine to plans (.032) and have nearly 30 hours on my XL with no issues. I must have over 60 take offs and landings with several not so soft landings. I do remember when I was building that the metal seemed a bit thin, but it seems to be holding up so far.
Looks like I will need to weld on a little extra support when I get some time
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I built mine to plans (.032) and have nearly 30 hours on my XL with no issues. I must have over 60 take offs and landings with several not so soft landings. I do remember when I was building that the metal seemed a bit thin, but it seems to be holding up so far.
Looks like I will need to weld on a little extra support when I get some time
Hi Nate, did you use .032 for the tabs welded to the axle tubes?
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I agree I also thought the plan spec. thickness was light but after lots of landings good and bad I think it is safe. Maybe something to do later when I have it apart to repaint. Keep you speed up on landing.
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No I used heavier material for the tabs on the axle tubes as well as a heavier axle.
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wire cable tether could be a short term insurance policy
if a bolt did pull through there would be a limit on movement.
tape or tie wrap it so it doesn't wildly slap things in the wind
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Thanks for all the replies. I might leave the V-strut brackets at .032. It seems pretty sturdy. I can easily cut off the .032 tabs I have tacked on the axle tubes and replace with .065 4130 that I have. The .032 material for the tabs seemed weak. I wanted to make the tabs a little longer anyway.
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To all builders of the XL the V strut metal that reads .032 metal should read .062 this is a change in the plans. Leonard
.
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Thanks Leonard. Sorry we kept missing each other on the phone. Finished the main gear and want to work on the tail wheel next. I was looking at Aircraft Spruce. They have a Matco tail wheel/1 1/2" spring for more $ then I want to spend but look solid. Only thing holding me back is the weight. Total weight is around 8lbs.
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Thanks Leonard. Sorry we kept missing each other on the phone. Finished the main gear and want to work on the tail wheel next. I was looking at Aircraft Spruce. They have a Matco tail wheel/1 1/2" spring for more $ then I want to spend but look solid. Only thing holding me back is the weight. Total weight is around 8lbs.
I suspect that would be about 7# to much.
I have often wondered but never heard it mentioned why, the Super simple and very light Soneri tail wheel wasn’t used by more than a few (Sam B being one of them) Many of you might know that I build tail wheels (though not anything this light) but am thinking that something that works well-functions right and does all that it needs to do for about 1.25# and might include the tapered rod spring.
My large set up, for up to 2500# gross aircraft only weighs 8# so it certainly is possible to do much smaller and in at 1.25#.
And before someone ask, why I don’t provide- the present reason is simply the price point is to low. That being many can get it made by scrounging up parts on the cheap. A good plan.
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Thanks Leonard. Sorry we kept missing each other on the phone. Finished the main gear and want to work on the tail wheel next. I was looking at Aircraft Spruce. They have a Matco tail wheel/1 1/2" spring for more $ then I want to spend but look solid. Only thing holding me back is the weight. Total weight is around 8lbs.
I suspect that would be about 7# to much.
I have often wondered but never heard it mentioned why, the Super simple and very light Soneri tail wheel wasn’t used by more than a few (Sam B being one of them) Many of you might know that I build tail wheels (though not anything this light) but am thinking that something that works well-functions right and does all that it needs to do for about 1.25# and might include the tapered rod spring.
My large set up, for up to 2500# gross aircraft only weighs 8# so it certainly is possible to do much smaller and in at 1.25#.
And before someone ask, why I don’t provide- the present reason is simply the price point is to low. That being many can get it made by scrounging up parts on the cheap. A good plan.
The Soneri tail wheel assembly is close to $300.
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The Soneri tail wheel assembly is close to $300.
wow, I had better rethink this…. not much to it for $300, but then again, it does work well.
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The Soneri tail wheel assembly looks great but is cost prohibitive (for me anyway).
I have this wheel I could build an assembly around. It's 3" diameter x 1 1/4" wide, solid rubber. It has high quality sealed bearings, very smooth operation and weighs a little over 1/2 pound.
Question, is 3" dia. too small? What would be the negatives using a 3" wheel.
I know its also a lot heavier then the roller blade wheels some are using but its very solid and free!
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What would be the negatives using a 3" wheel.
I know a guy that put that exact wheel on an airplane that lands at 70 mph along about 2010.
It is very worn but still on there.
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I am running the Aluminum Sonerai tailwheel casting from Great Planes (about $35.00) with scooter wheels. The 4" wheels I got on Ebay for 12.00 for 4 wheels. Bolts to the spring gear and can be drilled for lightening and connecting the rudder cable tabs. An AN4 bolt and spacers hold the wheel on. The 4 Wheels should last a long time.
It works Great!
Hopefully the pic is attached.
Bob
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I am running the Aluminum Sonerai tailwheel casting from Great Planes (about $35.00) with scooter wheels. The 4" wheels I got on Ebay for 12.00 for 4 wheels. Bolts to the spring gear and can be drilled for lightening and connecting the rudder cable tabs. An AN4 bolt and spacers hold the wheel on. The 4 Wheels should last a long time.
It works Great!
Hopefully the pic is attached.
Bob
Thanks Bob, Folks it doesn’t get much simpler than that. Nor much lower cost. And best of all, it works and has been proven.
Special note, if you look at this, you will see how the shapes produce a hole “shedding” effect, in other words, if this drops in a hole, it can easily slide out without hooking or catching on the hole. Even if you lost the wheel, the shape of the spring easily allows you to “drag yourself out of the airstrip” and get back home.
Well done!
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I am running the Aluminum Sonerai tailwheel casting from Great Planes (about $35.00) with scooter wheels. The 4" wheels I got on Ebay for 12.00 for 4 wheels. Bolts to the spring gear and can be drilled for lightening and connecting the rudder cable tabs. An AN4 bolt and spacers hold the wheel on. The 4 Wheels should last a long time.
It works Great!
Hopefully the pic is attached.
Bob
Well that's simple. And after some searching I found the link for the Soneri caster $30. Wish I saw this before building one yesterday LOL. The Soneri spring is $230. Bob, where did you source your spring from?
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My flat gear spring spring is a junk yard piece ( dumpster at alignment shop ($10.00) I cut with a steel cutting disk on a table saw and bent it seems to be holding its shape nicely..Also used the cutting disk to shape it and round corners before primer.
I have about 25 flights on my tailwheel and have worn maybe 1/8" off. They used to have a 5" casting but I could not fine a 5" scooter wheel. There is enough room on the 4" caster to get a 4 1/4 wheel if you can find one.
The 5" one would be perfect for bumpy fields.
I have a good field but on my opinion 3" would be too small, I sometimes pick up grass and weeds on my cable attach bolts from the little potholes.
Would be a lot worse with a 3" wheel.
Good luck
Bob
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This is what I built before seeing Bobs simple cost effective proven set up below LOL. The 3" wheel is a really nice wheel but I'm still concerned about the size. I built the arms to plans using .065 4130 which I also used to construct the caster. The whole thing with bolts weighs 1.16lbs. I had some bronze shoulder bushings which fit nicely in the 5/8x.049 tube for the 5/16 dia. center bolt. Deflection is a little more then 45 degrees and smooth.
I know nothing about tail wheels. Thoughts?
Also, there's nothing noted in my plans regarding the tail wheel height. How does one determine how high the tail should be off the ground?
Pete
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Close up pic of tail wheel
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Pete, your tailwheel design looks good, especially for the light-weight LEU or XL. Having the bolt in double shear will reduce the bending on the bolt. I made a tailwheel for DE Stubby, which works good, but we find a slight bend in the pivot bolt each annual. I may try to incorporate (steal) your idea some day.
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I decided to go with a more conventional set up for my tail wheel. I'm still planning on using the 3" wheel but built the caster to accommodate at least a 4" wheel. And went with a flat tail spring. It seems very sturdy. The whole thing including temporary grade 5 bolts, nuts and washers weighs 3.3lbs.
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I decided to go with a more conventional set up for my tail wheel. I'm still planning on using the 3" wheel but built the caster to accommodate at least a 4" wheel. And went with a flat tail spring. It seems very sturdy. The whole thing including temporary grade 5 bolts, nuts and washers weighs 3.3lbs.
I also reshaped the caster wheel arms to drop 1" to the bolt. Raises the caster up for more clearance.
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Pete,
That looks really good!
Bob Wood
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Thanks Bob! Welp, I added another leaf to the spring this morning. I had some material left over. I was dropping the tail and the spring was a little too bouncy. Plus I pushed down hard on the tail several times and the spring started flattening out. Its definitely stiffer now. I used this material for the spring:
Stress-Resistant 5160 Alloy Steel
(https://images1.mcmaster.com/mvB/contents/gfx/small/8910k709p1-j01-digitals.png?ver=1477915077)
- Yield Strength: 97,000 psi
- Hardness: Rockwell C25 (Hard)
- Heat Treatable: Yes
- Max. Hardness after Heat Treatment: Rockwell C63
- Specifications Met: ASTM A689
Similar to spring steel, 5160 alloy steel handles repeated cycles of stress without breaking. It’s often used for flat springs.
Maybe not as stiff as regular spring steel? I'm not sure. We'll see :)
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How thick is this steel?
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How thick is this steel?
1/4" thick x 1 1/4 wide.