Eagler's Nest
Engines => 3 cylinder Radial => Topic started by: Tom H on September 26, 2017, 06:01:28 AM
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We finally got all the pieces put together and were able to start the new Verner on our LEU a coule weeks ago.
Haven't tried this before, but, if it works, the link should bring up the video of the first start.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzE-b2TMqwGgWWpfbVkyS19VdU0/view?usp=sharing
Since then, we have taxied it around, and its great. But, the brakes are not so good - needed since it is on asphalt. I have been able to give it some throttle and fast taxied to get the tail up. This thing acts like it will leap off the ground!
We have to solve the brake issue, are going to replace the plastic bike wheels, attach engine safety cables, test fuel flow at high angle of attack, various misc. items, then taxi to test the engine installation before first flight.
More to come.
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Excellent!
Looking forward to More.
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Very cool. Sounds great! Thanks for sharing. Pete
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I cannot weight to see it fly, it has got to do good.
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I like it! Sounds great!
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Some more progress. Yesterday we put the front wheels on a small trailer and lashed it down, resulting in a nose up angle of 21 degrees. We initially had 2 gal of fuel in the tank, and then drained one gal through the tube that connects to the carb for a flow test. It took 7.5 min to drain 1 gal, therefore 0.133 gal/min, or 17 oz/min.
At this attitude, and with 2 gal of fuel, the bottom of the tank was about 6" above the carb inlet, and 2 gal of fuel added about 2" more height, so the total head was about 8 inches.
Then we proceeded to start the engine. Found that it needed a good prime (the carb has a prime button) to get a start, and, after several tries, it ran well, idle to full throttle. So far, seems like the fuel system is OK.
But, one concern. This carb does not have a bowl. It looks like an oversized Walbro carb from a weed eater. We think that some fuel pressure is required at all times for the carb to work (in fact, it came with a fuel pump, but we hope it is not req'd). We found that if the fuel valve on the bottom of the tank is shut off, the engine will quit quickly, seems well before all the fuel in the lines is used. We are concerned that if the airplane goes slight negative G, from downdraft or a quick down elevator movement, will the engine quit. Don't know, but will be aware.
Finally we put the airplane back on level ground and tested the static full throttle pull. This is with Perf Prop 62x38. We got 2150 rpm and 180 lbs of pull (no wonder the little bike brakes don't hold it). Comparing it to its earlier life with the half VW, with a 54x20 prop, 3120 rpm, producing 101 lbs of thrust, this engine/prop combo looks strong.
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Waiting for first flight has got to be exciting. Looking forward for word
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Tom, that's great info.
2150 static is close to perfect. I think with the larger 67" dia prop we can achieve over 200 lbs of pull, plus the engine will have a bit more power after a few hours of operation.
Carburetor- it is a Walbro 37. Your concern is the reason i am installing a header tank and clear fuel line. Visually i will be able to see fuel and know there is no air in the system. I too will run without a fuel pump during testing, we'll see if it's necessary.
Looking forward to more info.
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What is the latest, we are in suspense waiting for every detail.
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Well, boys, we've been slowed down. Don't hold your breaths. I should have reported back sooner:
We did a weight and balance, and the airplane came out significantly over the 254 lb ultralight limit. Not surprising to me, though. You all have probably seen the cartoon of the camel designed by committee? It was so loaded down by safety items, goodies, etc. that it was non-functional? Well, our project was built originally by committee, and repaired and "improved" by committee, too. (Sometimes, to keep the committee friendly, we compromise.) When we flew it with the original half VW, it weighed 273 lbs. This should not be a surprise to many of you who have been on the forum for a long time, I've fessed up on that before. And, to me, the current weight of 295 lbs empty is not a surprise, either. A disappointment, but not a surprise. Our committee replaced the alum tube struts with the Carlson streamlined struts, we put on bike hydraulic brakes with heal operated pedals. The Verner motor was lighter than the basic half VW, but adding the oil tank (which is heavier than it needs to be) and related items added more weight. Our committee likes to follow proper aircraft construction and details, so there are many adel clamps, extra supports, etc., which all add more pounds, but it looks good. Even though I constantly reminded all of them to only "add lightness".
In our situation, we will have liability insurance before we fly it. First Flight Insurance (and probably any others) insists that an ultralight has to be legal for the insurance. This aircraft clearly is not a legal ultralight, and ultralight insurance would not apply. So, we are in the process of getting it registered as an EAB, with N number, DAR inspection, etc. The N number has been applied for, may take three weeks to get it. Then the registration application has to be sent, may take 2 -3 months to get that. Then a DAR inspection, hopefully that will go quickly.
In the meantime, we have done some taxiing around the airport, getting a lot of admiring looks. We taxied it across the field to last weekend's Bowman Aviation Heritage Weekend, a recognition of the airport's history. We got non-stop admirers and many questions. The sound of that motor is awesome! I've taxied it at high enough speed to get the tail up, and it seems to handle great. With some throttle, it moves right out. We have talked about taking it to a small grass strip out in the boonies and doing some more testing, pushing more and more towards flying. We hope the weight will not cause the airplane to be a dog.
I think the Verner will be a good fit on the LEU and XL, will result in great performance, especially if the weight is controlled.
The moral of the story is keep it light. Don't make "improvements". Improvements seem to always add weight, and these airplanes don't need any more weight. You see stories of shaving off a few ounces of swarf on the engine, putting on minimal paint, foregoing nice to have instruments, counting washers, etc. I believe that is the kind of thinking a builder, (or a committee) has to have for these airplanes to avoid obesity.
I'll try to answer any questions, and will let you know as we make our way through the red tape.
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Thanks for the update. Looking forward to flying data.
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Tom, thanks for the update.
What did your oil tank weigh? i am working on mine now and think it will be less than 2lbs.
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I don't know the weight of it, but heavier than needed. One of our partners purchased a kit, probably meant for motorcycles. It consisted of a tube of alum, 6" dia, maybe about 0.080"+ thick, and dished end caps, maybe 0.150" thick and a filler neck. Already too heavy. Then add the hose fittings, drain, etc., and it was heavier than desired or needed. I know the tank you are building will be much lighter.
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But, one concern. This carb does not have a bowl. It looks like an oversized Walbro carb from a weed eater. We think that some fuel pressure is required at all times for the carb to work (in fact, it came with a fuel pump, but we hope it is not req'd). We found that if the fuel valve on the bottom of the tank is shut off, the engine will quit quickly, seems well before all the fuel in the lines is used. We are concerned that if the airplane goes slight negative G, from downdraft or a quick down elevator movement, will the engine quit. Don't know, but will be aware.
Tom,
Walbro WB-37 has a fuel pump inside. There is a terminal on the flat side of the carb. It should be connected to source of the pulsing pressure - for example crankcase. If it isn't, maybe it will be solution.
I'm going to use WB-37 for my BMW R1200. Could you put here a photo of carburator and its connections, please?
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woj, looks like a good manual for the WB. I'll have to read/study it, and look real close at the carb installation. Not sure at this time if the crankcase impulse connection is made.
I've attached a picture, but it is not the best. If you need better, say so, and I'll try again.
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Tom, I studied the manual a while back. Just couldn't figure out how to tap into crank case pressure. Not really sure it'll work with the 3cyl. It'd be great if someone sorted that out.
Any progress on y'alls Eagle?
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Thank you for the photo.
In the picture, the pressure inlet should be near the blue tube (it is hidden behind the air filter). Maybe it is connected to the intake collector?
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Woj, I'll have to look it over more carefully when I get to the airplane. We just followed the small amount of info included in the engine manual, so much more to learn. Thanks.
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Woj, we looked at the WB carb on the Verner 3 on our LE yesterday. I noted several differences as compared to the WB Service Manual. Our WB carb has two tube nipples; one is for the fuel supply, the other is the impulse nipple, which is on the fuel pump diaphragm cover, both as shown in the manual. It originally came with a red plastic protective cover pushed over the impulse nipple. We put a 1 inch length of tubing on this nipple, open to atmosphere. The third nipple shown in the manual, which is on the cover of the metering end of the carb, and allows outside air pressure against the metering diaphragm, is not on the carb. Instead, there is a small button that is used to allow fuel to easily flow into the carb as a priming system. We have found that pushing this button for a few seconds will allow easy starting.
We can find no connection on the Verner case that would be used for crankcase impulses to the carb. The Verner manual has nothing to say about it, either.
We see the importance of the impulse fuel pump on the carb as important when used on chainsaws, for example, which are used at all attitudes, angles and positions.
However, the Verner engine is supplied with an electric fuel pump, but we decided not to use it since our tank is in the wing, above the carb. This was decision to eliminate a potential fuel pump failure which could stop the engine, against the concern that we would not have enough fuel head pressure supplied to the carb.
Our engine running tests show that our fuel tank arrangement in the wing allows enough fuel head pressure to supply fuel to the carb in a nose up attitude, and even more head pressure in a level attitude. The fuel tank has a vent in the filler that captures ram air while flying and will further increase fuel pressure to the carb.
One issue to be aware of is that if the fuel valve, located at the outlet of the fuel tank, is shut off, the engine quits quickly. Closing the valve essentially caps the fuel tubing to the carb, and does not allow fuel flow. Sort of like when you put your finger over a straw in a glass of water and lift the straw out, the water does not drip out hardly at all. So, we will not shut off the fuel valve when flying - problem solved!
Another potential issue to be aware of - if the airplane is pushed nose down, reducing fuel head pressure to the carb, will this reduce flow to stop the engine? We will find out during flight tests. The engine has a starter, and with proper planning for this test, should not be too risky.
Hope this helps.
Frank, we have a few minor details to get done before the DAR inspection, which is being arranged right now. Things like mounting the data plate, putting the "experimental" sticker on, proper W&B sheet, and a final detailed look-over. Its been too cold and now too windy to play with it, though.
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Tom,
Thanks for your explanation.
I will speak with my friend - the owner of the paramotors producer. He - I didn't know it - uses WB-37 in his engines. I think he will answer on any question. One problem - he produces two strokers.
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JUST IN - BREAKING NEWS!!!
We just got word from the DAR that the FSDO has accepted all of our paperwork for registering our LE as an E-AB.
We'll schedule the DAR inspection, hopefully within the next week, and then will be ready for first flight with the Verner.
Then, all we have to have is the right weather.
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GREAT news Tom!
We are all eagerly awaiting your report.
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The DAR visited yesterday, and our previous (un)legal eagle ultralight is now a legally registered E-AB aircraft. He found a few minor details to correct, and then we will be cleared to begin testing. We want to get our liability insurance before too much testing, and especially flying, since we are located at a commercial airport, but that should not take too long.
I'll keep you posted.
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Congrats!
:emoji_u1f601:
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Fantastic news Tom.. Look forward to hear and see it Fly... Oshkosh Maybe ??
Scott J
Oshkosh
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These guys are talking Oshkosh. Flying there. Would be fun. And punishing. Have to think about it.
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Waiting for reports on flying and performance of the 3VW. Keep us updated on all events so we can get an idea of all operation items, vibrations, speeds, climb, noise, wind on pilot, affects on leading edge of vertical Stablizer. Getting very exciting.
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Since I'm local to Louisville I hope to see this airplane when the wx breaks. Wish I had another build in me because I have a serious crush on that Verner.
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This is from 2 months ago...
Video from testing our brand new Scarlett 3V. Yes, no 3VW any more. Engine have bigger stroke - 82 mm, slightly smaller pistons 92mm, alluminium cylinders with iron sleeves, different intake manifold, new ignition, different carburetor inlet ... not a single part from VE enigne is used. And the weight is lover now - 37 kg for complete engine without exhaust, oil and oil tank. This one goes to France to our dealer Pierre.
https://www.facebook.com/VernerMotor/videos/1771015506295144/
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Here's an update on our LE/Verner Radial airplane, but probably not what you wanted to hear.
We got the DAR inspection completed with only a couple minor items to correct, which we did. Then, I worked on getting the insurance completed, which is done. During some add'l engine tests, we decided to replace the 1/4" alum fuel line from the wing tank to the see-through fuel filter near the engine with a 3/8" line, since the fuel was sluggish getting to and filling the fuel filter. Also, we decided to replace the original fuel filter, which is about 1" in diameter with one about 1-3/4" in diameter, to reduce any pressure drop in the filter, and to allow extra margin against filter pluggage. These concerns are all due to the fact that we are running on gravity feed, and not using the supplied fuel pump. We plan to do another ground test simulating a steep climb to verify all is OK. All this would take an hour or two, so no big deal.
The disappointing thing is that the weather has not been good to us. If warm, then it is very windy (probably could have flown it as a kite). Or, it is rainy. We haven't had a good enough day to do any flight tests, yet.
Of course, I'll report as soon as we do.
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These concerns are all due to the fact that we are running on gravity feed, and not using the supplied fuel pump.
Tom,
Is it a float type carb..? If so you need to make sure the needle and seat are sized correctly for gravity feed instead of fuel pump feed.
Weather is getting better by the minute... :emoji_u1f601:
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It is not a float type carb. It is an overgrown weed-eater carb, a Walbro WB. Some discussion of the carb is in the previous posts of this thread.
We have to be sure that the flow if fuel is sufficient in all flight conditions.
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Tom,
I should have scrolled down, my question was answered in the second post... Your questions about pumps and the pulse line should be answerable by the manufacturer...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fChkrFBjed904/giphy.gif)
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April 22, 2018, another date which will live in infamy . . . in our minds, anyway. Radial engined LE N217HT (restored Tree Hugger) finally flew!! We got to the airport early this morning, weather was good, winds light, straight down the runway. Captain Dave, one of the re-builders of the airplane, did some full power run-ups, decided it felt good, and made history. As far as we know, the first Eagle to fly with a Verner 3 cylinder radial.
Take-off run was quick and short, maybe 50 ft. Climb-out was done at a relatively high airspeed, and was way better than the airplane had ever done before. Full throttle speed was around 70 mph at around 2100 rpm, cruise at 1900 rpm about 60 mph. He said the airplane felt perfect - no tendency to roll, dive or climb. Overhead, it sounded great. Like some antique biplane cruising by with that slow, lumbering melody. He ended it with a smooth wheel landing. Taxiing back, he had the famous Eagle Grin on his face.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is the best engine that I know of for a LE. When Frank gets his LEXL flying, he'll probably say the same about his.
Oh, by the way, Frank, we put the supplied fuel pump on. We were doing some high nose up ground testing and found that the engine did not seem to run the same as when level, seemed a bit sluggish. The fuel pump made the difference like night and day. The engine accelerates more quickly and smoothly now. And, we found that the pump will let fuel flow when not running, so the engine will continue to run if the pump quits. So, when you get close to flight testing, I'd suggest you keep that in mind.
Another thing we did was hooked up a 5 dollar Chinese knock-off of the Tiny-Tach, and it worked perfectly, accurate and steady as a rock. My son bought a dozen of them off ebay, and gave one to me. Best electronic tach yet. And cheapest. Never had much luck with the Tiny-Tachs, unfortunately.
We took video, but did not have a proper video camera with zoom, etc., so the video we got was not very good. We flew from a commercial airport with tower, so we could not stroll out to the edge of the runway like we do at the grass strip. But, we'll get some good video when we move the airplane to the grass strip.
A good day, but unfortunately, the wind starting picking up and we had to put it away after two flights.
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Congratulation on first flight with the Verner radial. waiting fir more ight info and video.
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Tom, and Crew,
Fantastic news. Well done to you and the gang. Congratulations.
Scott J.
Oshkosh
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Congratulations on getting her flying. Dam, one day late for Thunder over Louisville. Would've made quite a stir on the airshow line.
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I just rec'd some better, but not great, video of the LE Radial take-off and flight. But, the sound is great.
I had to put these in Google Drive due to their too large size. Worked once for me, hope it works again.
Take-off
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13puohIf4x6N1tIWx64QUAzOgl9ByBqv8/view?usp=sharing
Fly-over
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10X6yq15W6vqphUS39NxCK2kqcNQNm5sw/view?usp=sharing
Landing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qm04TYDyThJ5sx74aMvo0rabDZzXbcds/view?usp=sharing
Kevin, the guys wanted to make the first flight on Saturday, Thunder Over Louisville Day, but the tower was not allowing pattern flying. It would have made an impression flying down the river, and probably got the pilot arrested!
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Tom, That's Great!
I had seen the video on Facebook yesterday. Sounds Awesome. Mine will follow soon as i get a few props done for customers. Gotta pay the bills.
BTW- i have decided to pull the header tank and go with the fuel pump also. Approx same weight , so no gain there. Thanks for the info too.
Looking forward to seeing flight data
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Congratulations on your successful first flight of the VLEX. I will possibly be right behind Frank and HIS first VLEX,
Cheers,
Nick L.
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Tom:
It isn't an over-sized weed-eater carb: it's a miniature Bendix PS-5 injector carb! :)
Hope this makes you feel better!
It is not a float type carb. It is an overgrown weed-eater carb, a Walbro WB. Some discussion of the carb is in the previous posts of this thread.
We have to be sure that the flow if fuel is sufficient in all flight conditions.
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Sounds much better!
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Thought you'd like that! :)
Sounds much better!
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Tom
When you start the engine when it is cold, if you advance the throttle does it try to die and starts moving around or does it take the throttle advance. Mine, after it runs for while and warms up some will smooth out and take the throttle but initially the smallest throttle advance is met with bad shaking and wants to die.
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Les, seems our Verner was a bit stubborn initially, but is good now. We use the fuel pump continually. It will run with the pump off, but not as well. Also, we have fiddled with the high speed mixture to allow highest rpm at full throttle, then richen it about 1/8 turn. However, there is not a drastic change with this mix adjustment, which seems odd to us. Usually, a high speed mix adjust can be adjusted to get rough running at both too lean and too rich settings, but this one does not seem to allow adjustment to be too rich. Its OK, but we have our theories that the carb may be too small. But, the factory probably knows more than we do???
To start the first time for the day, we turn on the pump, then push the little primer button on the carb for a moment, which dumps fuel into the carb. It will then start right away. Of course we don't give it too much throttle until it runs for a few minutes, but we try to keep it out of the shaking range, which is around 900 - 1200 rpm, as I recall.
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Some update on our Verner powered LE. We have been testing a couple props from Frank Johnson, making modifications, etc. The airplane flies great, but we are trying to maximize engine rpm, climb rate, cruise speed - all at the same time. I know, we will have to comprise.
We were able to fly both our DE Stubby and LE Treehugger in formation and get some video from a helicopter. Had a great time doing it. Our radios were not cooperating, so we had to keep the flying real simple, but the result was great. Here is the youtube link:
https://youtu.be/UTHXJgUAQJA
There airplanes are fun to fly!!
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So much fun! Great vid! Thanks for sharing.
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Great video.
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Awsome video! Glad to see Tree Hugger flying again. :emoji_u1f601:
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But is it smoooooooth?
Before building, I've been looking at every option, from a Hummel 1/2 VW, to a Polini Thor 250, and now this. Vibration is something of a concern, but I also think the obstructed view is going to be a major factor. Is it worth it?