Eagler's Nest

Airframes => Single Seaters => LE => Topic started by: Vince Carucci on November 20, 2019, 07:27:23 PM

Title: Fabric Cover
Post by: Vince Carucci on November 20, 2019, 07:27:23 PM

I'm trying to figure out how many yards of fabric I need to purchase to cover my LE? I'm estimating about 30 yards (72" wide). Is that even close?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: jrbirdman47 on November 22, 2019, 04:13:50 PM

Vince, I was guessing about 27 or 28 yards at that width for myself. What kind of cover system are you planning to use?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Vince Carucci on November 22, 2019, 07:07:52 PM

Thanks for the reply, it was helpful. As for the specifics... undecided at this time. I was thinking of Poly-tak and Poly-fiber from ACS. But I'm going to do this in my basement over the winter and should probably think about the fumes. I have to do a little more research.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Steve on November 22, 2019, 10:11:20 PM

Strongly suggest you consider this thread and process:

https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=671.msg3606#msg3606 (https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=671.msg3606#msg3606)

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on November 23, 2019, 10:33:20 PM

I used the Stuart System. No Fumes.  Been flying my plane for 4 years with no issues.  Still looks great.  Many U-tube videos on line.  It may add a little extra weight but very minimal.  Easy to use excellent results as a first time builder.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Vince Carucci on November 24, 2019, 01:22:52 PM

I think I made up my mind. I am going to use SUPERFLITE SF104 (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/superflite09-05364.php) 72" fabric from ACS for $7.75/yard, and 3M FASTBOND (https://www.amazon.com/3M-30NF-Fastbond-Contact-Adhesive/dp/B000660IJ6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?gclid=CjwKCAiA8ejuBRAaEiwAn-iJ3n9Zr86KkXi3FwF31uYv_swLj9vekrDQC7pEMfAWeUqeQ2eCAZGSchoCCcMQAvD_BwE&hvadid=182560576958&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9003219&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16907816655394354488&hvtargid=kwd-38906370385&hydadcr=1011_9642262&keywords=3m+30nf+fastbond+contact+adhesive&qid=1574603970&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFBMDU3WE5HTFdTN0smZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwMjAzMzEyT0RXSUcxMVVISEpZJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwMTM4NzVYMUlFNE1XOUtUWU4md2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl) from Amazon $36.95/quart. 
I've had no luck finding 1.8 oz. fabric in a 60-62" width anywhere. This SF104 has the same specs as the other lightweight material but cost about $3 less than the next lowest price. So unless someone has a cautionary tale about it... and the 3M is about half the price of the Stewart EKO-BOND. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: 914pete on November 25, 2019, 07:52:07 AM

Hi Vince, newbie here. Is this not appropriate because it is too heavy?
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/cs/dacron/peelply4.php
Never covered an airplane before and am considering different options.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Vince Carucci on November 25, 2019, 10:09:30 AM

Yeah, my guess would be it's too heavy. Not only is the fabric weight nearly twice what's recommended, but it will also hold more primer/paint. Making weight is enough of a challenge already. So I am going to get the 72" fabric at 1.8 oz. and just try to be economical with the usage.

Trying to build this on budget is half the fun, not an absolute necessity for me. That's why if one person knows something worrisome about SF104, I'll choose differently.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on November 25, 2019, 10:53:18 AM

Peel Ply has many good uses, I'm sure. However, I will stick with Dacron/Ceconite/Superflite fabric since it was designed to cover airplanes. There are some Legal Eagle builders that have used Peel Ply. If they will respond here with what it took to make it work safely, I may change my mind, but somewhere I read that certain glues do not hold fast to Peel Ply since the fabric is "slicker" than Dacron.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: 914pete on November 25, 2019, 11:08:29 AM

I really wanted to try Oratex. Even bought a sample kit of it and made a test panel. Unfortunately, it's pretty expensive and the shipping is very expensive. Enjoying the build but want to keep costs down. 28-30 yrds of something 72" should cover the wings and tail feathers?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on November 25, 2019, 12:25:19 PM

Oratex is great, but the cost is too rich for my blood. I'm using the linen colored 3M glue and the lite Superflite fabric. I figure it will take 10 yards for each wing panel, 5-yards for the top of each and 5-yards for the bottom of each. That allows for overlap at the leading & trailing edges and wrapping over the root & tip airfoil. Leaves a little waste, but some is inevitable. If you cut carefully, another 10 yards should cover all the tail. Only thing left is how much of the fuselage you want covered with fabric. I made a scale drawing of the fabric outline on paper, then drew the wings and empennage on it. I can't find my drawing right now, though.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Vince Carucci on December 09, 2019, 06:18:37 PM

This topic has moved from "what I plan to do" to "what I did".  

I placed an order for 27 yards SF104 and Stewart EKOBOND from ACS.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 04, 2020, 04:43:41 PM

Hi guys,

Little late jumping in on this one, but I’m nearing the fabric stage and could use some help. Fabric covering is all new to me.I am leaning towards the SF104 light weight fabric, even though there was a comment posted on the acs site saying not to use sf104 on light weight structures because of warping. Would proper iron temps and the right procedures negate that from happening with that particular fabric. Also l intend to use the waterborne adhesive. Don’t want the toxic odors. Has anyone used the 3M fast bond? Does it work as well as the Ekobond? Also, am I correct in assuming the next step after fabric glueing on, would be the reddish colored stuff,polybrush? Not sure what it does. Any help I can get thru this covering process would be immensely appreciated.

Thanks
Mark

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on March 04, 2020, 06:30:21 PM

If you use the SF104 fabric and Fastbond you would not use the "red stuff". You are correct about warping the frame. Using the higher 350° temp as a final shrink may bow the empennage frame. Using less heat will alleviate this issue. Search Stewart Systems on YouTube and watch their excellent videos. The Fastbond is what most of us believe is the same glue as Stewart System EkoBond glue. The "red stuff" is part of the Poly-Fiber system. The two systems should not be mixed. Pick one or the other and go with it. The Poly-Fiber system has been around since the 50's or 60's and has been used to cover a lot of airplanes, homebuilt and certificated. Stewart Systems is a newer waterbased technology that does not have the fumes the Poly-Fiber system has. I like two specific things about the Stewart's over the Poly-Fiber. One, there are no dangerous to breath or flammable fumes, and two, you can paint the glue on complete portions of your airframe and come back later that day or the next day and put the fabric on. With Poly-Fiber, you put the glue on in short applications and immediately place the fabric down because the Poly-Tak (glue) dries quickly and should be wet to bond fabric.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 05, 2020, 06:55:23 AM

Awesome, your help is greatly appreciated. Definitely planning on Stewart system. Been watching videos to the point my brain hurts, but I think it is starting to sink in... maybe. As far as priming the wing before cover, I wonder if it matters what I use so long as it is cured before starting the covering process. I have a can of minwax oil based urethane spar varnish and am wondering if I can use it. Thinned out a bit of course.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on March 05, 2020, 08:24:22 AM

Since Stewart's is waterbased, I decided to use Varathane waterbased urethane spar varnish on my wood so there would be no chance of any oily residue interfering with the Fastbond adhesion. I'm sure oil-based is fine if the dried surface is oil-free.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 05, 2020, 03:36:29 PM

I think you are making a valid point. A waterborne product it will be.
Now I think I will search the forum for a wing strut topic. Got a few questions there.
Thanks

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: scottiniowa on March 06, 2020, 08:25:16 AM

Quote from: Kamcoman77 on March 04, 2020, 06:30:21 PM

  I like two specific things about the Stewart's over the Poly-Fiber. One, there are no dangerous to breath or flammable fumes, and two, you can paint the glue on complete portions of your airframe and come back later that day or the next day and put the fabric on. With Poly-Fiber, you put the glue on in short applications and immediately place the fabric down because the Poly-Tak (glue) dries quickly and should be wet to bond fabric.

I might add, and this may be true of the other NON Stewart products, but the "certified" method of being able to count on max sheer strength of a glued overlap of only 1" is really worth something.   Even having a 1" cap strip or anything 1" or more, could/can allow NO rib stitching    That and the assurance of how a simple tube wrap will hold for the duration of the fabric life.  :D

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 06, 2020, 02:48:46 PM

Hi Scott, I think I may have missed your point. I know next to nothing about this subject, when you say the certified method, are you referring to the poly fiber system?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: scottiniowa on March 06, 2020, 03:20:58 PM

Quote from: scottiniowa on March 06, 2020, 08:25:16 AM

I might add, and this may be true of the other NON Stewart products, but the "certified" method of being able to count on max sheer strength of a glued overlap of only 1" is really worth something.  Even having a 1" cap strip or anything 1" or more, could/can allow NO rib stitching    That and the assurance of how a simple tube wrap will hold for the duration of the fabric life.  :D

I probably worded that a bit incorrectly, what I meant was, I think their (stewart) system was certified using 1" overlap joint.  If I am still saying that wrong, I don't mind being corrected.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 07, 2020, 05:03:02 AM

Hey fellow builders,
If I was to use the water based system, how would you suggest the gluing to the rib tops would be accomplished? I talked to the boss yesterday, I hope it’s not unethical to repeat what he said. He suggested I use poly tack to glue the fabric on and then go straight to latex primer and paint. Backing up a second ,he said coat the rib tops with poly tack and let dry before covering. After cover and shrinking, apply I think  reduced poly tack to the rib tops to soak thru and activate a good glue bond to the ribs.
My wife and I live on the second floor over top of my shop, so creating noxious fumes is to be avoided. The water based system seems to be the way to go, except the rib gluing thing still leaves me with questions.
Again I hope I am not stepping on any toes here.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on March 07, 2020, 08:52:04 AM

I'm not sure how others have done it, but I will coat the rib upper & lower surfaces with Fastbond (Stewarts EkoBond?). After it dries lay down the fabric and use a small heating iron to press the fabric onto the rib. The heat activates the glue to make a fairly strong bond. Next, a coating of Fastbond painted along the rib and rubbed into the fabric with a blue paper towel (shown in many Stewart's videos) to lock the fabric down. This should be as strong as Poly-Tak rubbed through the fabric like Leonard does in his video. I plan on making a few test pieces to check this bond. If the fabric pulls loose from my test rib easily, I will rib stitch the upper wing surface in the area affected by prop blast.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Mark Kramer on March 07, 2020, 03:27:37 PM

Good deal. I will be very interested in hearing about those tests. I hope it works good, so I can put this issue to bed. Decided to go ahead and fit the wings to the fuselage anyway. Got some time before cover now.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Kamcoman77 on March 07, 2020, 04:54:54 PM

It's going to be a few months before I cover my wings. No tests til then.

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: okdonn on March 07, 2020, 05:03:29 PM

The polyfiber process is fairly easy to patch/repair. Can you do the same with Stewarts or latex house paint?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Dan_ on March 08, 2020, 09:22:25 AM

Quote from: Kamcoman77 on March 07, 2020, 08:52:04 AM

... I plan on making a few test pieces to check this bond. If the fabric pulls loose from my test rib easily, I will rib stitch the upper wing surface in the area affected by prop blast.

I saw a "test" at the Oshkosh Poly Fiber workshop many years ago.  I enjoyed the workshop so much I wanted to do it again but dint.

If memory serves, the lady doing the test had 2 strips of dacron fabric glued together about a foot long and about and inch wide.  I'd say about an inch overlapped where the glue was.  She had 2 people pull on one sample, they could not pull them apart.  She then took the other sample in her hands and peeled it back over itself like one would do removing masking tape...

So the glue was great in sheer but not when being peeled off.  However I submit that neither of these scenarios is what a wing is subjected to in flight.  I would tend to believe it is more like suction (tension) on top of the wing and pushing (compression) on the bottom.

The absolute strongest fabric attachment to rib cap strips is the Hipec system.  Below is a pic of Chuck Slusarzcyk standing in a test box showing the strength of the fabric glue. 

See here: https://hipec-aircraft-coatings.squarespace.com/about/ (https://hipec-aircraft-coatings.squarespace.com/about/) and here:http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html (http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html)

I read somewhere that Hipec glue is good for 120 pounds per square inch.  Below is a pic of Chuck Slusarzcyk in his more svelte days giving the glue the "empirical test"...

(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmusclebiplane.org%2Fimage1%2Fheavy2.gif&hash=676fe8accae2e760c52f5bf7c11934af9036c2c5)

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: scottiniowa on March 08, 2020, 09:46:04 AM

Quote from: Dan_ on March 08, 2020, 09:22:25 AM

 

The absolute strongest fabric attachment to rib cap strips is the Hipec system.  Below is a pic of Chuck Slusarzcyk standing in a test box showing the strength of the fabric glue. 

See here: https://hipec-aircraft-coatings.squarespace.com/about/ (https://hipec-aircraft-coatings.squarespace.com/about/) and here:http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html (http://musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/hipec.html)

I read somewhere that Hipec glue is good for 120 pounds per square inch.  Below is a pic of Chuck Slusarzcyk in his more svelte days giving the glue the "empirical test"...

I don't disagree with a word said here or on the website....but when I asked the company, "how do I do a recover?" or "start over"  it got pretty quiet...I would love to hear the answer to this, but presently they just say you have to grind (and not a light easy grind) it off?  is that true?

Title: Re: Fabric Cover
Post by: Dan_ on March 08, 2020, 10:27:59 AM

Quote from: scottiniowa on March 08, 2020, 09:46:04 AM

I don't disagree with a word said here or on the website....but when I asked the company, "how do I do a recover?" or "start over"  it got pretty quiet...I would love to hear the answer to this, but presently they just say you have to grind (and not a light easy grind) it off?  is that true?

Ran across this...

(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviationbanter.com%2Fimages%2Fstatusicon%2Fpost_old.gif&hash=7ebe825833a34b19a0910706c455c313c2d2de4c) November 16th 03, 09:57 PM

Ray Toews external usenet poster Posts: n/a

(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviationbanter.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon1.gif&hash=d46e8d6a3f27e7d7c5601f568979c0a0f897c7a6)What about a recovering job or repairs in general... I have used Hipec on several ULTRALITE designs and found it very easy  to use.  I have used most systems, Randolph, Stits, Ceconite 7600 (what  happened to it?) and prefer the Hipec method.  It is easy, quick and rugged, stinks to high heaven but ventilate or  use respirator and you can get a nice finish with a foam roller in a  clean room. It is a bit tricky to spray, I had a friend with a body  shop spray it and made a mess which I cleaned up very nicely with a  roller.  I dismantled an aircraft which had 1/2 inch aluminum ribs that had  been Hipeced and the fabric was a real bi hatch to pull off the ribs.  On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:06:15 GMT, "Blueskies" wrote:

And this from a Lazair group:

Postby bdiedenhofen » Mon May 12, 2008 8:22 am
I did do a final shrink, and it was fine. There is some minor scalloping on the trailing edge, not bad though.
The underside was slightly shrunk, and then weights were placed between the ribs, and the sunbarrier was brushed through to hold the cloth to the ribs. When dry, the weights were removed, and a final shrink was done. It has held to the camber nicely.
I was curious as to how well it would hold. When I tightened up at the wing tip, I had to clamp a piece of wood over the top of the wing to get the cloth to contact the last rib. There was a lot of tension on that point. When the Hypec was dry, the wood clamp came off, and the cloth stayed stuck. It's been stuck there for four years now, and holding well. So the stuff works.
The only place thats mechanically fastened is the upper curve of the wing tip. The original aluminum cap strip was riveted over the cloth to hold the shape there.
My plan for recovering is to cut the cloth away between the panels, leaving strips over each rib. I saw this in a book somewhere, maybe the Hypec manual? Anyway, the plan is to lift one end of the strip, and then roll it over a pencil. By rolling the strip of cloth off of the rib on a pencil it should lift off without damaging anything underneath. Alternately, the strip of cloth could be left, sanded smooth, and the new cloth glued over it.
I'm expecting that I will get 15 to 20 years out of the cloth, so I'm not too concerned about the recover project for a while yet.
I have done a few repairs, and it's super easy. Simply clean the top paint from the area where the patch is going with MEK and then glue the patch on with sunbarrier. Once dry, shrink the patch a bit, and put on a coat of sunbarrier to fill the weave, and then paint. Works great.