Eagler's Nest
General Category => Builders logs => Brock's bits - LEXLV3 => Topic started by: Brock on October 27, 2024, 09:55:37 AM
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Got word Friday that my Verner should ship in the next two weeks. Exciting. Gives me new motivation to complete the frame and get some legs under it.
Stay tuned...
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Excellent! I ordered one recently but won't see it till Spring.
Im interested in seeing the new method of mounting since it appears they changed that.
Also, did they update the manual?
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Have they provided any pics or details on the mounts? Were you able to ensure that you were getting the latest version of engine? Is the oil tank a separate purchase?
I'm still thinking about getting one of these engines.
Jeff
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My purchase is via MyersAviation. Information has been slow in obtaining. The pdf manual they sent shows the older style engine mount tabs pictured. I've asked several times for engine mount drawings. Myer's keep responding that they will ask verner for the drawings. Finally they said that they had a Verner 7U on display at Oshkosh of which they took many measurents :-( I'm not so sure the 7U mounting is going to be the same while both the 5 & 3 are in the same manual so I suspect they would be the same.
The oil tank is really more of an airframe part, meaning this you will have to build yourself. Makes sense as it really needs to be shaped to fit the aircraft.
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Would you use Meyers Aviation again given the lack of timely communication and accurate feedback?
If I can figure out my AI translation feature of my phone I may call Verner directly. One of my biggest problems is dealing with third party distributors who don't share my level of involvement with the product. I used to deal with this all the time in medical imaging equipment support. I'd often have to teach the rep on the phone about what their companies equipment was before being able to order the proper parts.
Of course it may just be a tough task getting info out of Verner. Either way, I'd appreciate your perspective.
Jeff
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I purchased my engine through BRAHN sport aircraft. They provided me with the latest datasheet and told me that Verner has not updated it for the latest version yet.
The current datasheet does show a somewhat useful oil tank but you definitely need to make your own as I have not found any available. There are 2 videos on YouTube that show oil tanks, one is Les Homans Verner 3Vwalkaround, the other is Frank Johnson Verner 3W on Legal Eagle XL.
Also on radialsrock.com under FWF accessories there are 3 photos of oil tanks for Verner although they look a bit large for the 3V.
I plan on eventually asking Les for more info on his.
I think I’ll get a few questions before I ask.
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Here are a few pages from the manual on the oil tank. As long as you get the basics (ie. hose-sizes, oil/air-volume, oil level below valve seats, etc) the shape should be of little concern. I've read where some folks have disquised their oil tank as underslung fuel pods or bombs. But on a part 103 that would add weight so it really makes sense to keep it as close to the engine as practical.
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Oil tank for LEU Treehugger w/ Verner 3VW pics attached. Tank body was a kit made for motorcycles. I used the cylinder, even though it was too heavy walled, made lighter end caps and all hose fittings, welded it up. Holds about 2.5 qts at half full.
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Hi Tom
Thanks for the photo. The more I get to see the more confident I'll be when creating my own. So if filled to the top it would hold 5 qts? How many do you fill with and how much sits in the enging when running? Also I'd like to know if you do anything special to cool the oil.
Plus, it appears no one has an oil separator.
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Peterros, I put in about 2.5 qts. of oil. The oil system vents out through the tube near the oil fill cap. There is no oil mist from that vent tube, so no oil separator needed.
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I hit send before answering all your questions. I don't know how much oil is inside the engine when it is running, but, if I had to guess, maybe 1/2 qt. I have done nothing special to cool the oil.
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Good luck with your engine installations guys. I’m still a bit away from that, my wings are taking me forever to finish.
Please post as much as you can about your engine mount build.
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I did essentially the same as Tom. Great minds think alike and all that.. :grin:
(https://static.imgzeit.com/large/c167fe1630382ee8/20230202_153715.jpg)
The hose clamps I used are stainless from a marine supply. I like them better than the typical worm gear clamps, and they weren't expensive. I fill with 2 1/2 quarts of oil, and add 4 oz after running it, so I assume there is 4 oz in the engine. Need I say that you don't want to cheap out on these hoses? :)
I'm pretty sure I detailed how to build the tank in my build thread.
Edit: here
https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/index.php?topic=2197.480 pages 33 and 34
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DHL stopped by the house with this little box. The nice lady driver loaded it directly onto the tailgate of my pickup, which I quickly drove to the airport for the unveiling. All crated up it reportedly weighs 135lbs. Turn's out that was not all packing and engine. Also included was a tool box complete with two different socket wrenches and much more. There was a very nice logo'd beer mug and a can of the their local brew. The crate is simple yet well thought out styrofoam block. Everything fit well and it seemed to weather the voyage with nary a dent.
The two socket wrenches, it turns out, are for the two different sized spark plugs. Who knew, that when I ordered the dual ignition setup that the plugs were not going to be the same. Thinking outside the box. There was not much in the way of paperwork except the warrenty explanation that the 1year warrenty began the day I purchased the engine from the dealer. That was four months ago.
Meyer's Aviation said the engine mount should be finished in a few days. Kinda need that so I can finish station#1.
Well, that's all for now. I'll continue to add to this "engine build log" as the project progresses.
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You beat me to it. I was going to post "Brock.. let's see that new powerplant." :)
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I also was hoping for additional info once you got it. Thanks for the update!
Looks like it comes with an oil cooler?
Also, any new drawing to show the changes? I think they changed the motor mount points.
It'll be great seeing it on the plane with a prop on the front.
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No oil cooler, no documentation, no installation manual, no maintenance manual.
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If you have nothing let me know and I will email you what I have. It is the 3VL version so I think the only difference is the mounting.
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I have the 2020 manual for the 3VL & 5VL. What I would like is some of the technical info like how does the generator work/wired, How are the coils timed, etc.
Does anyone here have the dual plug/ignition 3VL? Woder if it is a bit more fuel efficient with two sparks.
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I had some questions for Verner to which 'Kimil Verner' responded. Here is what I learned...
-FB is the main way the factory communicates to the comuninty. :-( I'm not on FB.
-An updated manual will be out early 2025.
-The 3VLA uses the engine shock mounts from the Rotax 912. (anyone have a set laying around?)
-Separate exhaust pipes have a better sound than the ring-exhaust.
-below are the main dimensions.
Question: What propellers are you using on your 3V?
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You are not missing much on facebook. My guess is that you won't be running it before early 2025 :) but I can take a picture of any thing in the operating manual that you are concerned about before then.
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Oh, I have the old 2020 manual. Yes it will be some months as I've not yet build the wings, ribs are done though.
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Verner said that the engine shock mounts were/are the same that is on the Rotax 912S. So after searching I found part numbers then ordered what I believe is needed.
Parts
(x8) Rubber gromett - LORD RUBBER J3608-1
(x8) Washer -
(x4) Bushing -
The gromett I got off Aircraft Spruce. They were over $33 each! Verner said they recommned a 'Shore Hardness of 75'. I have not been able to find the hardness specs to the Lord mounts I received (pic below). The washers are special cupped washers that go on each end of the mounts and the bushings go in the center. These metal parts were also very expensive but I found them used and have them on order.
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EDIT: 15Jan25
Verner sent me, today, this link for the updated manual. Said I can share it on the forum...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GwnCROukmo1M1n4v6EHvBLii4PdyIk8M/view?usp=sharing
The Carb Tuning Guide can be downloaded directly from (better quality)...
https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/510-0245_carb_tuning.pdf?sfvrsn=0
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Thanks for that. It's considerably more detailed.
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I'm putting this in my Engine thread as it attaches to the engine and I didn't want to start a new thread.
Today Big-Brown dropped off this bug-free Warp Drive propeller. I've not assembled it to measure the length but it should be 67". No doubt wood would have been lighter and more nestalgic looking. Perhps one day. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Anyways, just posting a pic for my log record as well as for those not familiar with Warp Drive props.
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Nice fun toy! When does it get mounted and run?
Are you building a stand or will it get mounted on the airframe before running?
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No stand except the airframe. Though I'm working on the gear now so it will still be some weeks or more before mounting.
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Yeah, my BIL told me I needed to make a stand an run it and I told him it would run when Bullet was ready to fly. Bullet made a perfectly good test stand. :)
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Thursday Big-Brown delivered this ring mount for my 3VLA. Seems the welder used the wrong drawings - oops! At least one of the four points line up. Back to the drawing board and this time I will be doing the welding. Welding skills have improved a bit since first ordering that mount, long before welding up the frame. This mount was made with 5/8ths and 3/4" tubing of unknown wall thickness. A few questions for you with the 3V (or 3VLA).
- I have a HarborF tubing bender with a 5/8th die set. Anyone know how small of a circle can be managed on this tool? I'll be shooting for 14" OD dia. This mount is 16" which is larger than the width of my firewall (Made station-1 13.5 x 13.5 on center).
- What size tubing (dia & wall) have you found to work well. Would be easiest if I could get away with just 5/8ths since I have a bending die for that. But I'm not opposed to picking up a 3/4 die set.
- Also, I was planning on using 5/16" (AN -5) bolts. Any reason to go different?
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I wish I had one of those benders, so I can't tell you what it will do. My engine mount holes were some weird metric size between 5/16" and 3/8". I reamed it out to 3/8 to use AN hardware. You want the bolts to fit the case pretty well.
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I wish I had one of those benders, so I can't tell you what it will do. My engine mount holes were some weird metric size between 5/16" and 3/8". I reamed it out to 3/8 to use AN hardware. You want the bolts to fit the case pretty well.
On the 3VLA the bolts don't fit the case but the mounts. The wrong mount that was sent to me was setup for 3/8" bolts. I think that is what my 200 HP lycoming takes while the 85 hp on the sonex uses 1/4" bolts. I was wondering if 3/8 was just overkill and if 5/16" would provide enough of margin. Bigger bolts = more weight.
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Oh, I'm sure the 5/16" are plenty, but I didn't want that less than turbine smooth Verner wallering out (Indiana term) :grin: those holes in the case if the bolts don't fit well. At least that was my reason for reaming to 3/8".
Now.. your engine is completely different with the rubber directly against the case.. and I'll bet you have enough experience to make the call.
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Today I started on the engine mount. It's been long in coming since I was still working on the firewall engine bolt mounts. Alittle aobut that. I decided (sorry no pics at this time) to weld the engine mount bolt bushing directly to the tubing like I saw on a friend's Citabria. What I didn't count on was gobs of filler needed to properly weld them into place securely. I would have saved on time and frustation (aka learning opportunities) if I had welded in the corners plates, drilled them and then weld in the bushings. Anyway, it's done.
So for the first engine mount task is to build parts. There will be four bushings for the firewall side as well as four for the engine side. Then in the middle will be this ring pictured below. It was pleasing as to how well it turned out, almost like I've done this before, Not. The OD of my firewall is 14 1/8 square. I decided to match that with a 14" hoop. I thought a long time what tubing to use for the hoop. In the end I decided to try out the light 5/8" x .035 because I had a long piece and I already had the 5/8" dies for the HF tubing bender. The reasoning is that the two tubes coming off each corner of the firewall will basically meet with the tubes coming from the engine, thus the hoop becomes more of a stabilizer than massive structural provider. What do you think?
There is a technique to getting the hoop to bend with out a twist. I caught on right away that the tube needs to be coaxed as the bend progresses. The ends finished just one diameter off which was needed to manuver and to then remove the hoop.
After bending I cut both ends off at the same time with a hacksaw which gave them both the exact same angle, that was a very nice surprise. Next I drilled a small hole necst to each end (should have made the holes closer to the ends than I did) and installed an interior sleeve for alignment, strength, and weldability. Turned out nice.
Finally I couldn't reist holding the hoop up in front of the (upside down) firewall.
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That is freakin awesome. Attaboy X 2.
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The size of the hoop in that last picture has bothered me and I just figured out why. The hoop which is slighly smaller than the firewall looks too big. But looking at the pictue I notice the taper of the tubes aft of the firewall and realize that the hoop would look better (best?) if that taper was caried forward to the hoop location. Thus the hoop would need to be about another inch smaller. Oh well, It's not going to get unwelded and resized.
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May not be noticeable when that big beautiful engine gets mounted to it.
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A bit more Progress on the Engine mount. I clamped this 3/4" playwood to the airframe and through drilled the corner holes to make a base to jig up the mount. I'll only very lightly tack a few tubes then remount it to the airframe in case things don't line up perfectly.
I'm doing some head scratching and am wondering if there are any engineer types out there to give input. So, the hoop is 5/8" x .032. A little on the light side but I'm guessing it might work with the right bracing. After mounting the bolt-bushings and hoop to the jig I realized that my bolt-bushings are only 1/2", and while plenty strong for the task, it will be hard to weld a 5/8" brace to. Three options, use the 1/2" x .052 tubing I have on hand for the braceing (see the blue tape for how I'm thinking of bracing), or use 5/8" x .032 and flatten it a bit, or change the bolt-bushing to 5/8 x 5/16 (bore) which would be over kill.
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The .035 tubing has been fine on everything on Bullet. Once you start coping the bracing, you'll see that it's no problem to weld the bushing to the tubing and BA (big ass) washer. :)
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The .035 tubing has been fine on everything on Bullet. Once you start coping the bracing, you'll see that it's no problem to weld the bushing to the tubing and BA (big ass) washer. :)
Thanks Chuck for the reply & information/expirence, it helps. On the BA-Washer, I don't see it's purpose and was not going to weld them on. They are present on my jig to keep the bolt-bushings perpendicular to the flat plywood and at the same level. They would make welding a bit easier, is that their function?
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Actually they spread the load to keep the bushing from trying to drill a hole in the firewall. :) Check out factory mounts.. they all have them.
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Kinda like a 3D puzzle but one you have to also make up the pieces as you solve it.
I finally relented and replaced the 1/2 bolt-bushing with 5/8" as it made more sense for welding the 5/8" tubing. Also the engine side will get 3/8" bolts as that is what the shock-mounts are designed for. Now I wish I had gone with 5/8"x3/8"(bolts) all around. To late on the airframe as the bolt-bushings are only 1/2" and I'm not about to grind them out to reinstall. Well not yet anyway. Anyone else dislike doing a job twice?
The jury has yet decided if the washers are going to get welded or will remain part of the jig.
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Let me make that decision for you.If you don't use them, with vibration the bushings will fret the aluminum crankcase which will lessen the torque on the bolts which will fret the case some more and waller out (technical term) :) the bolt holes, etc. The same will happen to the firewall to a much lesser degree. I'd make the washers out of 4130 to boot.
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Regards weight of warp drive prop versus wood props on the Verner3V. I have one of each on my 2 Legal Eagles. Very little difference in weight. Measured in a few ounces and the warp drive ground adjustable makes fine tuning easy. Only downside of warp drive is if you have to hand prop. Not good
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"Anyone else dislike doing a job twice?" ANY job worth doing is worth doing twice! :))
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More Engine Mount progress. It seems to be a dance of two steps forward one step backwards but the progress is in the right direction.
Well I've finally finished welding up the airframe side of the ring mount. Even managed to mill off .4" from each of the very thick/heavy bolt-bushings. During the process I manged to blow through the tubing twice just like in the first picture. The one pictured I was able to repair w/o a patch but the second one (can't find the picture) was twice as large. It needed a band-aid which turned out not looking too bad (second pic).
So with half the mount done it is time to turn my attention to the engine side of the mount. The process was to remove the mount from the airframe, where it was mostly welded to prevent misalignment, and install it back into the jig. Now you probably can not tell from one picture but I'm struggling with what is the lower side of the mount. Those two bolt-bushings extending from the top of the jig will eventually bolt into the engine shock mounts. Thing is, they are really/rather close (90mm). So I'm not quite sure how I am going to mount/brace them. I'll have to work on other projects (brakes, seat) until I decide what design to use.
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Ok, I don't want to sound like a know it all.. but I *have* been doing this stuff since the 60s. :) If you look at how radials are normally hung, they are mounted to the ring.
Like so.
(https://static.imgzeit.com/large/a9f52f562c7a5549/20250605_141354.jpg)
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Well now you tell me :o
Stuborn as I am you might have just said "I bet you can't make it work like that". So I'll keep plugg'n away on my current plan. Huh, and I was thinking it was clever to put the ring 50% between both it's mount points. If after it's done and I have to add gussets or such, so be it.
One thought on the ring being mounted to the engine is that it gives clear access to the accessories. That would be the carb in this case.
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One thought on the ring being mounted to the engine is that it gives clear access to the accessories. That would be the carb in this case.
Uhh, yeah. I have done a *lot* of fooling around with jetting and have the scars on my arms to prove it even with the engine mounted to the ring. :grin:
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More mount progress. Hope to finish it up tomorrow. Couldn't help but trial fit it, I'm very happy with it. Still have a few more tubes to weld in, once I decide where. ;-)
Don't look closely at the welds. Many of them are still just tacks.
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Attaboy.. :)
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With the mount finished there was nothing that could be done but to mount the engine and make airplane noises. No, actually it was nice to confirm everything that my head dreamed up instead of sleeping at night. Today was the first time I've actually seen the front of the engine as it's been face down in styrofoam. I noticed one thing very curious, perhaps needing attention from Verner. This engine has dual plugs, came with dual ignition units, but only one connector off the front of the engine to drive only one ignition unit. Anyone else have dual plugs?