Eagler's Nest

General Category => Off Topics and General Interest => Topic started by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 15, 2014, 10:36:15 PM

Title: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 15, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
DO I HAVE A BAD ENGINE CASE??  My full case 1/2 VW (Cassler) has a boss with threads in the top hole starboard side (right) when installed looking from pilots seat.  The port side (left) does not have this boss nor does it have threads.  ANY HELP?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Poorman2 on April 16, 2014, 01:59:32 AM
Charles, My block is the same way as yours. It is supposed to be that way. On the VW the starter bolt had a flat on one side where it went through the starter, transaxle and engine. It was a long bolt with a nut on it. The side with the nut built in the case just had a long bolt. The threads are metric. In another post, I think Bob gave you information about the bolts. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on April 16, 2014, 08:03:59 AM
This is what Joe Engelman is doing for motor mount bolts attached:
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 16, 2014, 09:26:47 AM
Steve, the Eagleman stud looks great ,but I don't have access to a lathe nor do I have the skills to fabricate.  IS THERE A SUPPLY OF THESE FROM JOE?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on April 16, 2014, 09:43:14 AM
Steve, the Eagleman stud looks great ,but I don't have access to a lathe nor do I have the skills to fabricate.  IS THERE A SUPPLY OF THESE FROM JOE?

Charles: I know Joe has done alum castings for the oil filter & crankcase breather but whether they are for sale or the other parts is a question... He is listed as Engelman Engineering & Street Rod Specialties, Independence, MO . . .
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 16, 2014, 10:05:54 AM
STVE, WHAT HAS EVERYONE BEEN USING?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 16, 2014, 10:55:36 AM
Charles: I know Joe has done alum castings for the oil filter & crankcase breather but whether they are for sale or the other parts is a question... He is listed as Engelman Engineering & Street Rod Specialties, Independence, MO . . .

STEVE, I TRIED TO CONTACT JOE BUT THAT BUSINESS IS NO LONGER IN SERVICE.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Dan_ on April 16, 2014, 11:03:15 AM
 STEVE, I TRIED TO CONTACT JOE BUT THAT BUSINESS IS NO LONGER IN SERVICE.
They give a ph# on FB...  However it may be what you tried already.



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Engelman-Engineering-Street-Rod-Specialties/146811345363341
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 16, 2014, 08:35:34 PM
They give a ph# on FB...  However it may be what you tried already.

YES, THAT IS THE NUMBER I CALLED.  I PURCHASED SOME GRADE #8 METRIC BOLTS 10mm, 3 1/8 INCHES LONG WITH COURSE THREAD.  I'LL SEE IF THEY BOTTOM OUT ON THE TWO BOTTOM ENGINE BOLT HOLES.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on April 16, 2014, 09:12:19 PM
They give a ph# on FB...  However it may be what you tried already.

YES, THAT IS THE NUMBER I CALLED.  I PURCHASED SOME GRADE #8 METRIC BOLTS #10, 2 INCHES LONG WITH COURSE THREAD.  I'LL SEE IF THEY BOTTOM OUT ON THE TWO BOTTOM ENGINE BOLT HOLES.

Charles: Leonard in the past has advised using the stock bolts which are grade 5 and NAPA grade 5 is what I bought and used without a failure in service... More than one flyer has broken bolts including Engelman - I would go with what the designer recommends... In addition to Engelman other builders have redesigned the mount workings - the key thing about the Milholland mount is to have the inner alum/nylon bushing working freely and the 4 mounting bolt grips on the rubber bushing evenly tensioning the working assy's...

Be cautious about running those bolts deep into the stud holes - the cases I've worked with didn't have clean threads toward the bottom and something will break if forced... I ran my bolts in about 1/2 - 3/4 inch or the distance the original bolt is dimensioned if you have them...
Steve
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 16, 2014, 09:34:31 PM
OK I'LL BUY NAPA GRADE #5 X 10 mm, COURSE THREAD.  I'LL SEE HOW FAR THE BOLT THAT I BOUGHT WILL GO INTO THE BELL HOUSING AND PURCHASE A LENGTH THAT WON'T ALLOW THEM TO BOTTOM OUT.  MY ALUMINUM SPOOLS SLIDE FREELY INSIDE THE STEEL MOUNTING TUBES WELDED TO THE .063 GUSSETS AT STATION #1.

DO I NEED TO INSTALL THEM WITH RED OR BLUE LOC TIGHT?? OR SOME SORT OF THREAD LOCK?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on April 16, 2014, 10:24:46 PM
DO I NEED TO INSTALL THEM WITH RED OR BLUE LOC TIGHT?? OR SOME SORT OF THREAD LOCK?

I just witness marked them as you will be adjusting them for a while: http://www.chiefaircraft.com/torque-seal-r.html
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 17, 2014, 08:23:20 PM
I tried to buy grade #5, 10 mm, 3 1/8 inch bolts at NAPA but they only carried grade #8.  I'll have to find another source. Here are some pictures using the wrong bolts.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 17, 2014, 08:39:23 PM
DO I NEED TO INSTALL THEM WITH RED OR BLUE LOC TIGHT?? OR SOME SORT OF THREAD LOCK?

I just witness marked them as you will be adjusting them for a while: http://www.chiefaircraft.com/torque-seal-r.html

I WENT TO THE WEB SITE ABOVE BUT THEY WANT A $20 MIN ORDER.  I'LL CHECK OUT AIRCRAFT SPRUCE.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Bob S. on April 17, 2014, 09:00:43 PM
Just curious....WHERE does the threaded part of your bolts end/start? IF you are going to have a bolt fail, it will most likely fail in the threaded part...
I would swap those bolts out for AN bolts and have the threaded part as close to the nut as possible....

The bottom holes might need to be re-threaded with a Heli-coil to close up the gap. THAT's why I used studs on the bottom and put the nuts inside the cabin for those two and safety wired them. I double-nutted the top two. I also removed that steel insert on the right top engine mount hole...

Bob
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 18, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
Just curious....WHERE does the threaded part of your bolts end/start? IF you are going to have a bolt fail, it will most likely fail in the threaded part...
I would swap those bolts out for AN bolts and have the threaded part as close to the nut as possible....

The bottom holes might need to be re-threaded with a Heli-coil to close up the gap. THAT's why I used studs on the bottom and put the nuts inside the cabin for those two and safety wired them. I double-nutted the top two. I also removed that steel insert on the right top engine mount hole...

Bob

BOB, THANKS I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THE THREADED PORTION INSIDE THE BUBBER SHOCK MOUNTS.   WHAT IF I PURCHASED A LONGER BOLT AND CUT OFF THE THREADS TO MAKE THE BOLT SHORTER W/LONGER SHAFT and leave enough threads to screw into the block?  THAT WAY I WOULDN'T HAVE TO INSTALL HELI-COILS.  I HAVE NEVER DONE HELI-COILS.
I HAVE ABOUT 1  1/2" OF SHAFT ON A 2  3/4" LONG BOLT,  AND  1 3/4" OF SHAFT ON A 3" BOLT.  SINCE THE TWO RUBBER SHOCK MOUNTS AND TWO LARGE AREA WASHERS ARE A TOTAL OF 2" LONG,  I WOULD NEED A 3 1/8" LONG BOLT AND CUT OFF 1/2" OF THREAD TO AVOID INSTALLING HELI-COILS.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on April 18, 2014, 12:28:43 PM
I tried to buy grade #5, 10 mm, 2 3/4 inch bolts at NAPA but they only carried grade #8.  I'll have to find another source. Here are some pictures using the wrong bolts.

Looking at that camshaft plug in the case, it appears that it might be an after-market plug that isn't squeezed into grooves provided in case half's... I had a bad experience with the after-market plug (it popped out after a few hours - my speculation is oil sloshing going on back there that doesn't happen when the cam is present)... I rebuilt the engine with the stock cam plug and other builds with a cover similar to the crankshaft cover...

FWIW: I have been told that a metric 5 is the equivalent strength of an (AN) grade 8 - wondering if there is confusion about that somehow?...
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on April 18, 2014, 04:29:15 PM
I'LL HAVE TO CHECK WITH SCOTT CASLER ON THE CAM PLUG.  I HAVE NO ENGING BUILDING EXPERIENCE.  I HAVEN'T HEARD OF ANY BAD REPORTS ABOUT CASLER ENGINES.
THANKS FOR THE INFO. ON THE grade #8 "AN" vs. METRIC grade #5, 10mm BOLTS.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Bob S. on April 18, 2014, 06:35:14 PM
Cutting the bolts are OK...


I wouldn't worry about the cam plug if built by Scott!!
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Leonard on April 23, 2014, 06:07:22 PM
Hi
 in the hole on top where the insert is use a mm bolt and the other side I use a 3/8" bolt with a metal lock nut I use metal lock nuts in the engine area.  Am mounting the engine on my Cabin Eagle now and an having to round up metal locknuts. Leonard
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 14, 2014, 12:12:24 AM
I just stripped out both engine mount holes on the bottom of my engine block.  The longeron on the aft portion of the fuselage was level and station #1 was perpendicular and square to the longeron and aligned with the engine block and mounting holes.  But, the bolts were compressed into the mounting spools  by the rubber grommets, which didn't allow me to turn the bolts by hand freely.  So, I used a wrench to turn them very lightly until they grabbed a couple of threads.  They did. At the wrong angle.

Anybody have pointers on how best to install helicoils?  Never done it before.  Should I get them from ACS or my local auto supply??
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: rockiedog2 on May 14, 2014, 06:45:01 AM
I just stripped out both engine mount holes on the bottom of my engine block. 
how deep did you go with the bolt?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 14, 2014, 08:08:58 AM
I carefully ran a tap 3/4 inch into each hole, then cut each bolt to 2 3/4" to make sure they would't bottom out.  But, the bolts only turned in about three or four threads.
Is there a tightening pattern that would keep me from drawing up one side more than the other, thus causing the bolts to enter the block at an incorrect angle?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on May 14, 2014, 08:41:52 AM
I carefully ran a tap 3/4 inch into each hole, then cut each bolt to 2 3/4" to make sure they would't bottom out.  But, the bolts only turned in about three or four threads.
Is there a tightening pattern that would keep me from drawing up one side more than the other, thus causing the bolts to enter the block at an incorrect angle?

Strikes me there is a mismatch between the tap thread & bolt... Drill & tap some scrap material to figure it out... Remember - those are metric holes in the case... Discuss your findings with Leonard - you need a pro opinion on this...
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Bob S. on May 14, 2014, 08:50:01 AM
I bought a heli-coil kit from my local auto-parts house and the tap supplied followed the threads in the case quite well with no special tools or alignment... one MUST TRY to be as square as possible at any rate... Follow the instructions on the Heli-Coil Kit....
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 14, 2014, 09:38:00 AM
I carefully ran a tap 3/4 inch into each hole, then cut each bolt to 2 3/4" to make sure they would't bottom out.  But, the bolts only turned in about three or four threads.
Is there a tightening pattern that would keep me from drawing up one side more than the other, thus causing the bolts to enter the block at an incorrect angle?

Strikes me there is a mismatch between the tap thread & bolt... Drill & tap some scrap material to figure it out... Remember - those are metric holes in the case... Discuss your findings with Leonard - you need a pro opinion on this...
I tapped out each hole in the block with a metric course thread tap before trying to install the engine to make sure I had 3/4" depth and screwed a bolt into each hole.  Just a dumb operator error!  I think the problem was compressing the rubber mounts onto the bolt using a nut which made it difficult to turn the bolt by hand thus not being able to feel whether the threads were engaged properly.  Plus not paying attention to the angle of the block as I was drawing it in as I thighened the bolts.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 14, 2014, 09:42:53 AM
I bought a heli-coil kit from my local auto-parts house and the tap supplied followed the threads in the case quite well with no special tools or alignment... one MUST TRY to be as square as possible at any rate... Follow the instructions on the Heli-Coil Kit....
How did you make sure the new holes were perpendicular to the block?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Bob S. on May 14, 2014, 11:36:18 AM
I have a steel block with a hole bored in it that is perpendicular that I drill thru when tapping free hand.... I usually clamp it to my work before hand... It's too big usually, for tapping so I just try and keep the tap centered by aligning on the outside/square sides...
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Bob S. on May 14, 2014, 11:41:52 AM
I did the exact same thing trying to screw my bolts in the bottom two holes.....that's why I had to Heli-Coil them... then I went to studs in the bottom two mount holes!
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 14, 2014, 01:56:00 PM
I did the exact same thing trying to screw my bolts in the bottom two holes.....that's why I had to Heli-Coil them... then I went to studs in the bottom two mount holes!
Where did you get the studs?
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 15, 2014, 11:15:54 PM
While drilling out the bottom holes on the engine block to repair with helicoils I drilled into an helicoil already in the case.
   Is that normal for a new engine block??  
When I ran a tap into the hole for the new helicoil it stopped short (only 3/8" into the hole).  I looked in the hole with a flash light and saw the tang at the bottom of the hole.  The drill bit just chattered when I hit the h-coil.
Should I continue drilling?
I tried a 10 mm screw and it screwed into the block about 3/4" but no threads the first 3/8".

I think i"ll have to buy some of those studs if I could find out where to buy them.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Sam Buchanan on May 16, 2014, 06:04:46 AM
I think i"ll have to buy some of those studs if I could find out where to buy them.
Lower case studs:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VHD-N14-4114-2

You'll need to verify these are long enough for the Eagle mount.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: rockiedog2 on May 16, 2014, 07:33:36 AM
Charles
I'm not sure just how the full case setup works but on my 37 horse cutcase I ended up having to put studs in the case...I eventually put jam nuts on those studs against the case back to keep them secure. The rubber mounts didn't allow the torque needed to help keep the studs tight in the case. I ground down the nuts to minimum height and they buried in the rubber bushings with no probs. I also drilled the stud ends and safety wired castle nuts and studs both thru that same hole, wired the top studs/nuts to the bottom studs/nuts.
You're having a lotta problems...the stressful kind. Have you talked to Casler about all that? It looks like one of his motors.

Spencer
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 16, 2014, 08:42:22 AM
Cassler recommends picking out the factory heli-coil and drilling 1/2" hole and inserting a case saver.  It is a steel shaft that is threaded inside and outside for repairing screw-ups like mine.  He said that I should have the full 3/4" of thread for mounting bolts.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on May 16, 2014, 08:53:59 AM
Cassler recommends picking out the factory heli-coil and drilling 1/2" hole and inserting a case saver.  It is a steel shaft that is threaded inside and outside for repairing screw-ups like mine.  He said that I should have the full 3/4" of thread for mounting bolts.

Leonard recommends that you use Timesert repair kits for the best installation and durability in-service: http://www.timesert.com/html/mtrcsert.htm (http://www.timesert.com/html/mtrcsert.html)
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 16, 2014, 08:03:10 PM
Thanks guys.  I am going to bite the bullet and buy the Timesert repair kit for $100 as Leonard recommends.  They have a very detailed video on how to do the work.  I keep saying I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FINISH THIS AIRPLANE WITHOUT YOU GUY.  It takes a village ……yada, yada, yada..
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: Steve on May 16, 2014, 09:06:46 PM
I am going to bite the bullet and buy the Timesert repair kit for $100 as Leonard recommends.  They have a very detailed video on how to do the work.  I keep saying I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FINISH THIS AIRPLANE WITHOUT YOU GUY.  It takes a village ……yada, yada, yada..

Look on Amazon and do some Google searches for pricing alternatives...


Use the Kit# in the search argument
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 17, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
I am going to bite the bullet and buy the Timesert repair kit for $100 as Leonard recommends.  They have a very detailed video on how to do the work.  I keep saying I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FINISH THIS AIRPLANE WITHOUT YOU GUY.  It takes a village ……yada, yada, yada..

Look on Amazon and do some Google searches for pricing alternatives...


Use the Kit# in the search argument
So far the prices on Amazon are the same.  The kits on Amazon don't include the alignment tool which they offer for extra.  Amounts to same price.
Title: Re: Engine Mount Holes on engine case
Post by: CHARLES DEBOER on May 20, 2014, 09:09:00 PM
I finally got the heli-coils out.  Had to buy a 13/32" left-hand drill bit.  Made an alignment jig out of 1" X 1" steel tube drilled a 13/32" hole as close to the edge as I could using an end mill from my local EAA chapter #723 in Camarillo.  Clamped it onto the engine using the shank of the drill bit to ensure alignment and drilled out the old heli-coils.  The pick idea didn't work because the h-coils were recessed into the holes too far.  Waiting for the Time Serts to arrive.  Pictures attached.
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