Eagler's Nest
General Category => Off Topics and General Interest => Topic started by: Keith on February 24, 2015, 09:00:17 PM
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So I've been playing around in QGIS http://www.qgis.org (http://www.qgis.org) trying to figure out LEU ranges, I took the 170 mile estimate on the Wikipedia page, shaved off a 50 mile "running on empty or headwind" buffer (the yellow/red regions) and assumed 120 miles would be a "safe travel distance" (this is just an estimate of mine, and most likely incorrect) but its the green area, the blue is the 60-mile presumably "safe" zone (there and back?). I took my town of Lompoc, CA and Les Homan's home airport of Oakdale, CA as a hypothetical path (I adore his videos, they are a HUGE inspiration to finally build!) - just to see where I would technically need to stop and refuel at (ie. Kingcity, Coalinga, or Harris Ranch) since they seem to be the airport points in between both locations. Granted I am still missing aspects of a normal sectional chart, I think my next test would be to bring in the tile set from the FAA and just overlay these range buffers over the completed sectionals.
So what should I refine? What numbers need tweaking? How do pilots usually do this sort of thing (I am beyond amateur) - I am a GIS Analyst by trade (ie. Map Maker) so this is the only way I know how to tackle the question. I am open to any and all advice, or requests for a map of their own :)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FKLPC-O27.jpeg&hash=cfe31ca50bbb34474fcb49f8880cae85ca8e7e28)
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I think I fixed the broken image link, I guess Google wasn't playing nice. Sorry about that.
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Have to ask: have you had any aviation training? (it sounds like no?)
So I understand that FAR part 103 does not require anything of the pilot. And in many areas you can go up and smash bugs just fine with nothing more than knowing that stuff gets bigger when you push the stick forward and smaller when you pull it back. But for travelling by airplane it is a good idea to have some education in things aviation.
The "VFR sectional" is your friend here. When plotting a cross country course you want to do several things like avoid restricted airspace. The VFR sectional will help you do this. It will show items of interest for navigation and flight. Things like distinguish airports with services like fuel from airports without services. Things like notable waypoints so you can track your progress and determine if you have a headwind reducing your range or a tailwind increasing it. There is a LOT of information on a VFR sectional once you learn to read and understand all the symbology.
You may want to check in your area... I found that a local community college offered a very inexpensive aviation ground school class. I used it as a stepping stone to a private pilot license but it would be quite useful even without going through all the flight training for a private ticket.
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Have to ask: have you had any aviation training? (it sounds like no?)
Correct, though I do have some conceptual training through the Civil Air Patrol (back from my High School days), I did mention that I was an amateur. I also mentioned in my original post the VFR Sectional as an underlay to the range maps. A sectional will not tell you flat-out what your range is or where ideal intersection points are between fueling stops (though you could break out a ruler and figure it out by hand). I think I am far more curious if the 170 mile range is accurate, what rules of thumb Legal Eagle pilots go by for fuel calculations and range, and what amount of fuel is ideal to have left over for flight planning. I made some estimate assumptions and wanted clarification more than anything :)
Our local airport director is seated two cubicles away from me, he suggested I attend an EAA meeting and getting in touch with the local airport community. I've been waiting on a hangar for a year now so I could start building, so I have several more months until I even get to the point of flying. In the meantime I am asking questions, watching Les Homan's excellent videos, and counting the minutes go by. Thank you for the feedback Steve.
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Some thoughts below in RED for Kieth and all.
Correct, though I do have some conceptual training through the Civil Air Patrol (back from my High School days), I did mention that I was an amateur. I also mentioned in my original post the VFR Sectional as an underlay to the range maps. A sectional will not tell you flat-out what your range is or where ideal intersection points are between fueling stops (though you could break out a ruler and figure it out by hand). I guess I would add in a few other things, such as dos your winds allow you to fly as far as you want, each time you go. Simple reason being, you may average 2-3 hours of nice flying for a Legal Eagle if started early am, but if you “normally have higher the balance of the day” you may not like to progress back home. This would also be a point to toss in, with no training or past flying experience, do you like to do the “rough air flying” that you may likely experience if going further from home with hopes of returning each day? I’m not scolding, just saying, you may want to know more now rather than “much” later on after your build.
I think I am far more curious if the 170 mile range is accurate, what rules of thumb Legal Eagle pilots go by for fuel calculations and range, and what amount of fuel is ideal to have left over for flight planning. I made some estimate assumptions and wanted clarification more than anything :) Fairly simple, 5 gal, decided by estimated fuel burn per hour, times estimated speed. i.e. 5 divided by 2.5 for 2 hours time 60 would be 120 miles with NO reserve. Little changes make big difference. Fuel is only limited by locations in which you can get it. Distance traveled by the same. If you can keep getting it, you can keep going.
Our local airport director is seated two cubicles away from me, he suggested I attend an EAA meeting and getting in touch with the local airport community.always a good idea I've been waiting on a hangar for a year now so I could start building,sure don’t need a hanger to start building, in fact I would estimate a far higher amount of birds were built out of garage type locations than hangers and then assembled at the airport.
so I have several more months until I even get to the point of flying.or years. In the meantime I am asking questions, watching Les Homan's excellent videos, and counting the minutes go by. questions are always good.
Keep on with the dream Kieth, you got some great country to fly in…Best of success.
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Thank you Scott! That is an excellent break down on what to expect - I wonder how they got 170 out of what should be a 120 mile range?
Do you guys normally plan on 2-hour flight times (if you're going somewhere and not just touch and goes)?
I got on my local EAA chapter (275) mailing list today, our airport director thinks they may have a spot for me in April, I live in an apartment so I'd need a place to work (I don't know anyone with a garage in town yet that would be willing to let me make a plane LOL). This is all very exciting ;D
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Map with 120 mile ranges: 25 miles till empty in red, 70-95 miles in yellow, 35-70 miles in Green, 0-35 in blue (safe there and back)
Are those okay numbers to go with?
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FKLPC-O27-120.jpeg&hash=74942736f51c07724fdba2a550eba300e549518e)
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You don't need a hangar or a garage to start building. Start with the wing ribs. You will only need a small space on a table.
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Regards range. I use average of 2.4 gallons per hour at 3000 rpm. If I push it up to 3200 it can go to 2.7. In a no wind situation, which happens for maybe 10 days out of the year here in northern Ca I can see 55 ground speed at 3000 rpm, the rest of the year it varies, 30 mph ground speed is not uncommon 45 to 48 better Planning and with a tailwind I have seen as high as 78 mph ground speed a trip I make quite often is Oakdale to Rio Vista. To stay legal you cannot fly over cities, Stockton, so you go north north west then turn west distance on map about 57 miles. Several times going it has been 1.8 hrs, best time 1.4 hours. On the other hand coming home about 55 minutes with playing in delta, same distance or more. Longest single hop I have made was 85 miles in 1.8 hours, not much fuel left at end of 1.8 hours. Large differance between th erotica land reality. Better plan on fuel stops about 1 to 1.4 hours and allow for all variations. I have the 45 hp version of 1/2VW with dual munki I carbs running just below 1400 EGT and 350 chat with 250 Jett's. Smaller engines and different props wipe affect all this data. Lower RPM will make big differance. Only way to know for sure is to fly actual machine data is to be gathered for under actual conditions and keep records
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By all means start building your ribs. Look through the drawings, there are lots of small parts that you can start making. One part a day will get it done.
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Keith, I think you received excellent information from Les and Charles on flying away from home and the build process. Hard to beat numbers like Les provided and frankly your circles are just dreams for a year or two until you have really felt comfortable with your bird. But don’t let the stop you, I think you will find many telling an hour of flying your bird around home is a excellent hour indeed.
And has Charles eluded to, there are so many parts you will have to make and can easily do at home… no matter how small of an apartment. Simply no way to get around making the gussets, and this can be done at the kitchen table and put into small baggies or tuppaware tubs. You can preplan the amounts of each you will need.
I provided a pdf sheet in the down load section that will show these drawn out, (but not the number you need of each) This will print very closely to 1-1 as it is full scale and there are measurements on the the sheet so you know it is printed correctly to scale. We have found once your rib jig is made, you can build one rib in the jig in the morning, pull it out in the evening and do back side, and or even build another in the evening. Thus giving you 1 rib or 2 ribs per day, each taking only 30 minutes to complete, Again all at the kitchen table or small table in the living room. A really good feeling.
Best of success!
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Thank you everyone for the awesome feedback. The only reason I haven't made ribs is that I looked into a kit from John Bolding - is it better to buy the materials kit and start on ribs first, and then order the welded frame? I put in my order for the plans this week and should hopefully get it in the mail in a couple weeks :)
For fun I have taken what I know of Les Homan's videos and what he wrote below to come up with an estimated route map (that avoids flying over cities) is this about right? Les, if you have GPS paths saved (gpx format preferred) I can map out the actual routes that you fly :)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FOakdale-RioVista-Draft.jpeg&hash=dd8ca8893bc9acbc9639112b978c68241575e5c2)
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Check put skyvector.comand loor at there sectoinals. Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow. Actually gives more room than the map but course is one i generally fly going to Rio Vista
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Check put skyvector.comand loor at there sectoinals. Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow. Actually gives more room than the map but course is one i generally fly going to Rio Vista
Ah the spaghetti map ;)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FOakRioSect.jpg&hash=7a522bd0f06388ec17a5c6f814520b2b5e391890)
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So I think what I am taking away from all this, is that under common flight conditions I should expect a 60 mile range. Obviously there are a ton of factors that influence range, but based on Les's experience and some previous comments that sounds about right for 5-gallons and flying with headwind.
My range map keeps getting smaller and smaller, but it's better to be accurate :)
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You are getting there. Winds can vary several miles an hour in just a few hundred feet of altitude and with terain features and prevailing winds sometime direction changes can occur as well. Also depends on where airports and fuel are some times going someplace requires stop in 30 miles because with winds that airport where you really want to go is at end of range. On way back may be able to fly entire distance in one easy hop. We get to do a lot of landings at differant airports, great learning experience
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Yup... As you are beginning to see Part 103 was never intended to be a cross country deal :)
5 gallons is really not much and 55 knots is really not very fast either. Put them both together and as Les says you get to lots of landings. It could be worse of course: running a 2-stroke you burn more fuel and need oil to mix in when you refuel. One of the cool aspects of the 1/2 VW (apart from the sound) is normal gas for wide availability.
This is also why getting a Pilots license and building an Eagle in the experimental category can be attractive. This way you can put a second 5 gallon tank in the other wing and double your range legally. Or a tank in each wing plus a header tank for even more. This also eliminates the 254 lb empty weight limit.
The Spaghetti Map eh? Welcome to aviation where things are just a bit more complicated than driving down a paved road. All good info on that map, you can look at it for hours and still find more 8)
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Regards cross countries my longest trip was about 185 miles. i believe Joe Spencer in Kansas City has flown to Oshkosh several times and back to KC. It is possible but takes planning and experience
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Agreed it is quite possible and entertaining to contemplate how to accomplish.
So Les, are you going to fly to Osh this year? 8)
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On long this like oshkosh i trailer it there and put it back together and fly, like last year, if you study the charts there are to many places across the west that are 150 miles or more to fuel. It may be possible to bake it east but coming back west plan on and average of 20 mph head wind out west. I do plan on being in oshkosh again this year
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So I found the FREE location for the updated VFR sectionals directly from the FAA - they have a GeoTIFF I can use as a basemap to overlay range on.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/vfr/ (http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/vfr/)
I also sent them an email asking why they don't have a geoportal setup yet for GIS professionals. As a map-maker I see a sectional and see "all the layers turned on" in my head, so its very difficult for me to process out all the noise. If I had the core files I could produce a map that is far more straightforward for a particular use (maps should be interactive in general in my humble opinion). At least this will be a step forward in calculating out Legal Eagle range. I think my next project is to figure out how to calculate out head/tail winds for the ranges, that way I get a dynamic map that can be easily updated with weather information (and get away from the inaccurate circles) - I imagine it will probably look more teardrop shaped? ... hmm, this could take awhile LOL
Anywho, that FAA link is pretty nice to get officially updated sectionals for free online. :)
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The shape is my next goal, I really want winds to be calculated out correctly, but there is only so much research into that I can do in a day LOL
As Les pointed out, heading East would be a greater distance and heading West would be shorter because of headwinds. But how to calculate that out in a GIS platform might take me awhile to figure out... I really do like that Skyvector site mentioned earlier, its weather layers are really cool. :)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FLompocRange.jpeg&hash=2e4019d702f4081b6c81965f0ba2afcb8550be1d)
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You have probably taken your analysis about as far as is practical.
Let's say you impose weather data into your graphics here, what do you really have? You have a false sense of security because your circle says you can fly to >here< when in reality you may or may not be able to. The rub here is that we only have approximations of the wind speeds and directions in any of the weather sources. Those approximations may be way off and you cannot know it until you fly it and measure it and track things. Flight planning usually works best with 10-15 minute segments where you can check if your progress is different than expected/planned. If you are slower then you can start considering if alternate plans are needed.
One large advantage of this 10-15 minute segment method is you always know pretty closely where you are which is always a good thing.
The 10-15 minute may be short... but you need enough data points in the total time to detect deviations and make adjustments. And with the limited range of a LE I think this is where you end up.
So as Les suggested use a 1 hour range and draw your circle and find an airport with fuel in the general direction you are going hopefully toward a safe limit in your circle. Plan to fly there as a flight leg. Then start a new circle from there and repeat the stepping stone process until you get where you wanted to go. NOW... should you get lucky and have a significant tail wind you can check your sectional and see if there is another airport just a bit further you can make it to. Then while you refuel you can redo the rest of your flight planning based on the new segment starting point.
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You have probably taken your analysis about as far as is practical.
Yeah, you're probably right. Yesterday I put together a 3D terrain map that I could interact with (using QGIS and the plugin QGIS2threejs), though other than planning routes through valleys, it isn't too helpful in figuring out ranges per-se.
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FTopo3D.jpg&hash=72f11d49148c91b1f88dfa56980f3ce7cb75e1f9)
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You have probably taken your analysis about as far as is practical.
Yeah, you're probably right. Yesterday I put together a 3D terrain map that I could interact with (using QGIS and the plugin QGIS2threejs), though other than planning routes through valleys, it isn't too helpful in figuring out ranges per-se.
You or anyone else hasn’t said a word, but you do know what the numbers on your charts like- 27, 34 and all the way up to 72 in the blocks- mean on your chart of your flying circle???…. totally HUGE factor in any low powered bird… These again, are all factors….Don’t be discouraged about your circle getting so much smaller, it looks like you have some fantastic country to fly in.
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You or anyone else hasn’t said a word, but you do know what the numbers on your charts like- 27, 34 and all the way up to 72 in the blocks- mean on your chart of your flying circle???…. totally HUGE factor in any low powered bird… These again, are all factors….Don’t be discouraged about your circle getting so much smaller, it looks like you have some fantastic country to fly in.
Are you talking about the MEF?
I've been trying to familiarize myself with this symbol guide:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/
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I've been trying to familiarize myself with this symbol guide:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/
Certainly… Your not talking about just normal flying around, when you have ranges so vast in size 5000 ft. difference’s within your circle. I would spend more time on calculation of your build than on wondering which mountain range your flying over. Just saying’
Best of success
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I would spend more time on calculation of your build than on wondering which mountain range your flying over. Just saying’
Best of success
I left out the part where my father is a certified aircraft mechanic (now retired), he'll be overseeing the builds. So the build in general is not my concern, but we've planned trips to New Cuyama and Oceano and its important for us to know how far we can go (hence this topic) :)
I think Les's videos that mention range/fuel used was the catalyst for us to look into it, as Rio Vista to Oakdale wasn't that far - and Wikipedia made it sound like there was a 170 mile range (which sounds like a pipe dream now), I've submitted a change there to reflect the results from pilot feedback in this thread.
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You will be able to get there, almost anywhere in california but planning and short hops and not being in a hurry. There is a waybut may not compare to larger aircraft
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Wow, I'm dizzy from reading all this x country in a legal eagle stuff. I come to this site to stay away from over thinking flying. Airplane building is fun, get to gluing.
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Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow. Actually gives more room than the map but course is one i generally fly going to Rio Vista
This has been bugging me, the more I look at the maps the more I see something that is completely out of date - in fact the yellow cities are over 30 years out of date. Lompoc's populated areas (yellow) lines up with our 1983 aerials, same with Vandenberg Village, and several other cities in California. Something is seriously amiss at the FAA if they are 30 years off. I've sent them an email about it, I doubt they'll have a look at it. :-[
*edit: I also noticed Oceano airport (L52) is displayed with no tick marks, even though it has been offering fuel for years. This is on the Dec. 11, 2014 FAA VFR map that is valid until Jun. 25, 2015. I have the feeling that someone at the FAA is not doing their job.
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As I guessed, the most recent VFR FAA maps for populated areas is even older than 1983, since then housing developments have gone all the way up to the airport itself over the past 30 years.
This makes me wonder what else is incorrect on these navigational maps?
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FFAAVFR1983PopulatedAreas2015.jpeg&hash=d29ff9b317a53914cd8338e8b564fa2bf5132632)
* VFR map has been overlayed over the 1983 aerial and then faded to show populated areas over the aerial. As you can see, there is noticeable housing development to the North East that is not included (in 1983), the entire North up to the airport is now very populated city.
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As I guessed, the most recent VFR FAA maps for populated areas is even older than 1983, since then housing developments have gone all the way up to the airport itself over the past 30 years.
This makes me wonder what else is incorrect on these navigational maps?
Kieth,
all really important stuff that matters to VFR pilots has been changed if it needed changing.. i.e. squawk codes and the like. All of which really won’t matter much to you. Spend your time making parts and not maps and you will be far closer to see if the maps are right someday.
cheers
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Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow. Actually gives more room than the map but course is one i generally fly going to Rio Vista
This has been bugging me, the more I look at the maps the more I see something that is completely out of date - in fact the yellow cities are over 30 years out of date. Lompoc's populated areas (yellow) lines up with our 1983 aerials, same with Vandenberg Village, and several other cities in California. Something is seriously amiss at the FAA if they are 30 years off. I've sent them an email about it, I doubt they'll have a look at it. :-[
*edit: I also noticed Oceano airport (L52) is displayed with no tick marks, even though it has been offering fuel for years. This is on the Dec. 11, 2014 FAA VFR map that is valid until Jun. 25, 2015. I have the feeling that someone at the FAA is not doing their job.
The yellow on sectionals is pretty much a moot point these days. The yellow was originally intended to assist the night VFR pilot who was navigating by pilotage. The yellow areas approximate densely lighted areas of a city.
However....nobody navigates at night anymore purely by landmarks, GPS has made that type of navigation obsolete. The yellow areas are merely a historical oddity and have little relevance today.
By the way, don't waste time thinking that yellow designates congested areas. It was never intended for that purpose and the FAA can call just about any area it wishes a congested area if it decides to pursue violation of a pilot (or non-pilot in the case of ultralights) that is flying in a questionable manner.
I can think of a bunch of things that would be more productive to consider than yellow areas on the sectional. ;)
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By the way, don't waste time thinking that yellow designates congested areas. It was never intended for that purpose and the FAA can call just about any area it wishes a congested area if it decides to pursue violation of a pilot (or non-pilot in the case of ultralights) that is flying in a questionable manner.
I can think of a bunch of things that would be more productive to consider than yellow areas on the sectional. ;)
So Les was incorrect in saying "Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow"? What other areas would you consider?
To me this sounds like a very interesting legal issue with ultralight pilots that a lawyer would LOVE to get ahold of. I've stated this earlier in the thread that I am a GIS Analyst, and maps are pretty much what I live and breathe, navigational maps (especially official ones) are needed to be kept as accurate as possible. If the yellow areas have ever been used in a court-case this could really cause some problems for the FAA. I've ran the evidence past the California Geographical Society and they have some people interested in taking a closer look at this (including some pilots in Southern California). We have a conference in May and I hope to talk to them in person about it. I am confident a grad-student could get quite a lot of valuable research about the FAA and its lackadaisical map practices. Especially if other glaring errors are to be found that have lead to or contributed to anyones death or loss of property. There is no excuse for using 30+ year old data when more current data is available, I truly hope the "populated areas" is the only issue, but then again I did find an airport that offers fuel that wasn't listed on the current map as such (that's another big mistake in my opinion). This is an issue of integrity and public safety. I think what irks me the most is that the FAA traditionally charges for these inaccurate maps and has yet let the individual layers be accessible by the general public (geo-portal).
Anywho, to stay on topic - I was originally looking for range information for the Legal Eagle (which sounds to be about 60 miles on average) so I could plan out trips with my father. The forum community highly recommended just using VFR sectionals, I found errors in those maps, so in a way I am back to where I started - planning and making my own range maps. It just bums me out that AirNav and other 3rd party sites seem to have a better database on airports than the FAA does for its VFR sectionals. These are things that could be easily fixed and maintained in ArcGIS or QGIS, so I am left questioning the FAA and the legalities for ultralights.
Re: Building - looking at possible hangar space in April, John Bolding for XL kits and pre-welded frames, I'll definitely post in the proper build section when I get to it. In the meantime I'll keep asking questions and contacting the FAA to update their maps LOL ;D
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Read part 103 and it states something like no flight over villages or towns. And from what I have been told by those in the know if you like to fly lower the same location to irritate those on the ground there have been situations where two houses close together have be used for citations. Best advice is to stay high or stay away from houses and people on ground. In real life flying 1000 feet over a small town should not be much of a issue
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You know… if you take off from Cape Cod with a strong tail wind, you might be able to make it to the Irish coast by morning. Maybe refuel once in Keflavik. Then you won’t have to worry about mountains or maps or populated areas. Win-win, eh!
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By the way, don't waste time thinking that yellow designates congested areas. It was never intended for that purpose and the FAA can call just about any area it wishes a congested area if it decides to pursue violation of a pilot (or non-pilot in the case of ultralights) that is flying in a questionable manner.
I can think of a bunch of things that would be more productive to consider than yellow areas on the sectional. ;)
So Les was incorrect in saying "Ultralights to be legal have to avoid all the cities in yellow"? What other areas would you consider?
To me this sounds like a very interesting legal issue with ultralight pilots that a lawyer would LOVE to get ahold of. I've stated this earlier in the thread that I am a GIS Analyst, and maps are pretty much what I live and breathe, navigational maps (especially official ones) are needed to be kept as accurate as possible. If the yellow areas have ever been used in a court-case this could really cause some problems for the FAA. I've ran the evidence past the California Geographical Society and they have some people interested in taking a closer look at this (including some pilots in Southern California). We have a conference in May and I hope to talk to them in person about it. I am confident a grad-student could get quite a lot of valuable research about the FAA and its lackadaisical map practices. Especially if other glaring errors are to be found that have lead to or contributed to anyones death or loss of property. There is no excuse for using 30+ year old data when more current data is available, I truly hope the "populated areas" is the only issue, but then again I did find an airport that offers fuel that wasn't listed on the current map as such (that's another big mistake in my opinion). This is an issue of integrity and public safety. I think what irks me the most is that the FAA traditionally charges for these inaccurate maps and has yet let the individual layers be accessible by the general public (geo-portal).
Anywho, to stay on topic - I was originally looking for range information for the Legal Eagle (which sounds to be about 60 miles on average) so I could plan out trips with my father. The forum community highly recommended just using VFR sectionals, I found errors in those maps, so in a way I am back to where I started - planning and making my own range maps. It just bums me out that AirNav and other 3rd party sites seem to have a better database on airports than the FAA does for its VFR sectionals. These are things that could be easily fixed and maintained in ArcGIS or QGIS, so I am left questioning the FAA and the legalities for ultralights.
Re: Building - looking at possible hangar space in April, John Bolding for XL kits and pre-welded frames, I'll definitely post in the proper build section when I get to it. In the meantime I'll keep asking questions and contacting the FAA to update their maps LOL ;D
Is this for real or is somebody just trolling the forum for laughs??????
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Is this for real or is somebody just trolling the forum for laughs??????
For real, as a professional map maker we hold others in the industry to high standards. Your candor is not appreciated.
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3rd item from top on a Google search sums it up rather well...
http://footflyer.com/PPGBibleUpdates/Chapter08/congested.htm (http://footflyer.com/PPGBibleUpdates/Chapter08/congested.htm)
Best practice is to keep a low profile if you don't want extra interaction with Federales.
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Excellent Dan!
to copy it here
A side note: Yellow areas on sectional charts do not define congested areas. That myth continues to propagate but, to my knowledge, no documents support it, including court cases. Charted yellow areas are approximately what the light patterns look like at night, and they are notoriously outdated even for that purpose.
While interesting, these charts/range have been beat to death..interesting to note, that range went from 180 miles to 60, and yet the deliberation over the “possible” inaccuracy remained the same. This is simply true. What I don’t think you find wrong, is incorrect squawk codes, and you don’t want to be in those areas anyway.
I will agree with Sam, but add, that “ what you might find” you can do with your aircraft is perhaps best discussed after you find what YOU can do. Don’t get me wrong, it is always good to plan, but to plan to the last gal or few miles of travel, well…… lets just say it almost never works out. Not even for 152’s and up. Getting to where you want to go, works- getting there exactly to your plans…we just don’t have that kind of bird here.
Building it first is of the highest order, you mentioned getting all the parts from someone, and that is fine, with the lead times, better get the order done. Heck if you can find a storage unit with an electric outlet, you may be able to make progress. A hanger at an airport is generally only needed as the final step.
Best of success
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More fun with Maps: http://www.andrewt.net/blog/posts/fun-with-the-mercator-projection/
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More fun with Maps: http://www.andrewt.net/blog/posts/fun-with-the-mercator-projection/
I really like http://earth.nullschool.net/ for winds aloft (great planning tool) its updated every 3-hours and has lots of funky projections such as the Waterman Butterlfy and Azimuthal Equidistant (which is similar to what you posted). Just click the word "earth" in the corner to access all the options (like winds at different elevations) :)
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2Fearthnullschool.jpg&hash=5e398864769f9f892318db1113bc771a550d0858)
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I had a wonderful conversation over the phone with the FAA's map maker, he confirmed that some populated areas on the VFR are 30-40 years old and that massive budget cutbacks have really affected their abilities, updates currently are complaint-based for changes. He also debunked the myth that the yellow areas were ever used for night flying - saying that was never the case. :)
I recommended the US Census Urban Areas as a possible alternative in the interim until they can transition to a new system. I really wish the FAA was better funded, its a shame its been cut as severely as it has.
Anywho, if anyone would like the urban areas dataset for the entire USA as well as the islands feel free to check out:
ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2014/UAC/ (http://ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2014/UAC/) (84 MB) use ArcGIS, QGIS, or any other GIS platform to view and create your own maps for fun.
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FCAurban.jpg&hash=8b36c43c5a5f4fbc780f2f01ece3c2c71771c098)
Example: Urban Areas in California
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Anywho, if anyone would like the urban areas dataset for the entire USA as well as the islands feel free to check out:
ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2014/UAC/ (http://ftp://ftp2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2014/UAC/) (84 MB) use ArcGIS, QGIS, or any other GIS platform to view and create your own maps for fun.
Example: Urban Areas in California
http://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/maps/datamapper.html might be a link that works. The other seemed to be a dead address.
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He also debunked the myth that the yellow areas were ever used for night flying - saying that was never the case. :)
This is straight from the FAA sectional chart users guide (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf) p.29:
The yellow depictions on FAA sectionals represent populated areas in one of 3 categories.
- Category 1: Large cities
- Category 2: Cities and large towns
- category 3: Towns and villages
Towns and villages are a small circle, (so small it is hard to tell if they are yellow, but they are.) Cities and large towns are a yellow rectangle and Large cities are noticeably yellow in color and are supposed to have the general shape of the city at night.
Please find below an FAA map maker's comments on another forum...
mad_c Guest
There is no explicit explanation saying "we use yellow because...". The reason for this color being chosen is really not known. They've been doing it since day one on sectionals (Late 60's for Washington, for example). It was established by the powers that were, at that time...Dept of Commerce...FAA....Military, and whoever else was involved. As Jeff said, there is no authoritative source saying that yellow mimics light...not even in our specs.
That being said, we're left to our logical explanations for them choosing yellow...which was touched upon in this thread....mainly due to light emitted from populated places. I personally believe they chose yellow because it best mimics light emitted from these populated places...at night in particular.
With regards to the outlines of these populated areas & cities, we do update them as often as possible. This is primarily done thru satellite imagery. The frequency of these updates depends of how often we get updated imagery. And its nothing fancy...we dont have any special sources providing this for us. Personally...I use google earth for my chart *shrug*..Others use Terraserver...some use Globe Explorer. Quite often we cross reference these sources as well. I have been on a test team to try using imagery from other sources coupled through our GIS software...so other options are still in the works.
Also, we have our flight edit program. These guys fly around in a King Air and verify what we have charted, including city tint/outlines. If they see populated areas that are in need of updating, they give us a rough depiction of what the area should look like.
For the those interested, check out the city tint/outline for Harrisonburg, VA on the next edition. It's gotten much bigger based on the latest imagery I received, and has been changed accordingly. I'm gonna post a screen shot of the change I called for. And this was based on the latest imagery from Google Earth, so you can actually see my reasoning for doing such.
Chart change:
http://i14.tinypic.com/4ujs5y9.jpg (http://i14.tinypic.com/4ujs5y9.jpg)
Based upon:
http://i19.tinypic.com/4umz67s.jpg (http://i19.tinypic.com/4umz67s.jpg)
*FYI, for the local guys, or anyone using the washington secional:
The 82nd Edition will be delayed until August 30th. So you can ignore the expiration date of 8/2. A notice will be published. And NO, the new, delayed chart WILL NOT have the new ADIZ...go figure (https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstudentpilot.com%2Finteract%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Frolleye0018.gif&hash=be1bf65c860a5690c9fbc22afd55affa8ac77945)
I'll bet my money that they will make the changes shortly after August 30th...and have to re-issue the chart (https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstudentpilot.com%2Finteract%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fhappy0159.gif&hash=1442cfe228e79ef48b2a8399996ce6e40fc80fd6)
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Cities and large towns are a yellow rectangle and Large cities are noticeably yellow in color and are supposed to have the general shape of the city at night.
Yeah I saw that mad_C quote on the Student Pilot forums from several years ago (the tinyurl links have been broken for awhile). The FAA confirmed with me over the phone that the yellow is populated areas are based on city urban area shape, and that indeed they haven't been updated in 30-40 years. Only through confirmation flights as mad_c mentions. Budget cuts have really done a disservice to everyone in the aviation industry (personal opinion of course).
As for street light color, yellow is only found in low-pressure sodium lights, high-pressure sodium street lights are peach in color, and the newer LED lights going across the country are a barely blueish white. I used to be the GIS assistant for our cities Electrical Division so I am pretty familiar with them. I just find it interesting that the myth keeps propagating when it shouldn't. Cities have grown so much in the past 30-40 years that trying to use such old areas doesn't help. I really do hope they are able to utilize the Census data, granted its only updated once every 10 years, but its far more accurate than 30-40 years :)
I don't know whats up with the TIGER FTP server, their web-server seems to work fine though, just click the drop-down menu to select the "Urban Areas"
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/geo/shapefiles2014/main
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Over, and out...
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Just got confirmation that the official sectionals will be based on the lower resolution of the one I suggested. "The cartographic boundary files are simplified representations of selected geographic areas from the Census Bureau’s MAF/TIGER geographic database."
https://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/data/cbf/cbf_ua.html (https://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/data/cbf/cbf_ua.html) ~8 MB (much smaller download) This link should work unlike the FTP one posted earlier that was session-dependent (sorry guys).
I went to my local EAA meeting (chapter 275) on Saturday. I mentioned my map project and the FAA and they recommended that I get them to update the skydive location (the VFR was only showing their auxiliary site). Skydive Santa Barbara operates out of Lompoc with jumps as high as 18,000 feet https://www.skydivesantabarbara.com/ (https://www.skydivesantabarbara.com/)
They also screened the documentary "Flying the Feathered Edge" about Bob Hoover http://www.thebobhooverproject.com/ (http://www.thebobhooverproject.com/) (I highly recommend it, I am sure several of you have probably seen Bob fly). Such an amazing life! :)
I also showed them the Legal Eagle plans I just got in the mail, to my surprise the builders knew of the Legal Eagle, they echoed everyone on here's concern about getting the ribs done as a priority.
(https://www.eaglersnest.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzbj.com%2F%7Egoney%2Fimages%2FUSAurban.jpg&hash=f96d78f7831dab8bbdbf2b43c9163c1db2dc82bd)
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Does anyone still use sectionals?? Anyone except primary students, that is? Usage dropped off so much the FAA drastically changed their chart sales model a few years ago.
I have one in the RV-6, think it is from 2005 or something like that....didn't use it when it was new.....
GPS and portable databases in iPads, phones, etc have pretty much made all the sectional talk a moot point. I can't imagine anyone navigating by city lights on a chart!
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What is glare like for a tablet in an open-cockpit legal eagle? Is it still pretty readable dawn-to-dusk?
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Don't know about tablet but no problem reading iphone screen
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What is glare like for a tablet in an open-cockpit legal eagle? Is it still pretty readable dawn-to-dusk?
If your tablet is Android here is a very awesome nav package totally free... Apple and maps? They almost went broke with that dint they?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ds.avare&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ds.avare&hl=en)